Kevin's Watch

The problem with Time Travel is that noone agrees on how it should function. Without agreement, on the specific mechanics*, people can't (or won't) understand others' arguments concerning how those mechanics fit the story.

The big problem, of course, is that we try to theorize how the mechanics of time travel affect the story based on what we individually think about time travel. In reality, what we think about time travel doesn't matter at all; only SRD's understanding affect the story. So unless he posts a thesis on the topic, we aren't going to be able to draw any useful conclusions until we've read the final books.

The biggest problem is when people start arguing philosophy based on these misagreements. There's simply no way to resolve a philosophical dispute (ie, Does the Theomach have free will even though he knows the future?) in the best of circumstances**, let alone when we're trying to predict what an author with unknown inclinations in this area could decide to do with a story that he has already stated will surprise us (he's compared it more than once to a rollercoaster ride, and quite justifiedly so, imnsho).

Sorry for rambling, but I guess this is all just a long-winded (or Giantish?) way of saying that most of what we discuss can't be resolved without reading the next books.

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*For instance, some people believe that multiple timelines intersect, and that by making changes in one, you are able to "change course" and jump into a different timeline. Also known as, "Back to the Future" style.

Personally, I'm more of a single-timeline guy. Whatever is going to happen has already happened, and anything you do to "change" that has already happened so the "changes" aren't really changes, but things that had always occured.

There may be other theories out there, but these two are the most prominent.

**Q: Is it true that philosophists have never proven anything?
A: Yes, and the evidence is purely empirical.

This is kind of the point I was trying to make several months ago, albeit poorly. Time travel is not intuitive - like you say, we all seem to disagree somewhat on the particulars.

I think it's because of that, that leads to the feeling that much of the story feels contrived. I realize there's more to it than that, the Insequent and all, but it wouldn't be nearly as difficult to pull it off if it weren't for the prickly nature of time travel by today's understanding.

Yeah, when I first read RotE, I was pleasantly surprised by the prescence of time travel (I was like, dude, no way!) at the same time though I felt weary, since any story which involves time travel is tricky to accomplish, though Mr. Donaldson is doing well holding his own.

It is the premiss on how Foul is trying to escape.
The first Chronicles dealth with an attack to subject the people to his will and gain TC's ring to break the Arch.


The second was a direct attack of Earthpower so he could directly summon Covenant and gain the White Gold.

His last method is a attack on time itself to cause paradox which will break the Arch without Wild Magic.

His desire to be freed hasn't changed. It's the method of his attack. His lastest is a direct assault where the other two were an indirect approach.

But if Foul is using time travel to break the arch, he's already used time travel to break the arch...it still doesn't fit.

the annoying paradox of time travel is so akin to the paradox of white gold, therefore a good fir for the Last Chrons. I sit and pateintly wait for how all this will unfold in SRD's hands....

Yeah, there's so much more to the story than just time travel. But, I'd hoped he would do something different with it. Maybe he still will, but he seems to be following the standard hollywood approach of a linear timeline. I guess I'm not sure what exactly could be done differently, but a twist on the mechanics would sure be refreshing.

I think this time travel business is what scared SRD for so long about these Last Chrons, why he waited for so long to write them.

I'd bet the farm that we're in for some surprises with this business. He's only halfway done!

What I would suggest is that you compile a list of references to Time Travel in the story, and a list of references in the GI, put them all together, and see what is there. We'd then have a list of things that we know about Time Travel in the Chronicles. Everything else would be speculation (although not necessarilly wrong for that.)

I would also suggest that the following should be assumed:

+ it's fantasy, not sci-fi, so don't look for plausibility or possibility, and don't look for in-depth consistency, but only a surface consistency.

+ paradoxes are very possible -- it's the Chronicles!

+ I would rule out anything smacking of predestination, or of eliminating free will, on the basis of Donaldson's themes and styles.

Isn't a large part of this board devoted to predicting the future (virtual time travel) from interpretations of the past and present?

Predicting the future is (and can only be) a purely hypothetical exercise, no matter how good your information about past events; surely this is a different thing entirely from the "actual" time travel introduced in FR.

In my report from Bubonicon (the New Mexico Sci-Fi/Fantasy convention) on 8-23-03 I wrote,

He said that the 1st Chronicles were the "muscle" books where Lord Foul is akin to Hitler forging armies and A-bombs to ruin his enemies and break his prison. In the 2nd Chronicles Foul's method is an attack on the natural order of things. But in the 3rd Chronicles Foul's final means of escape will consist of a massive attack on and corruption OF TIME ITSELF!!!!!!!!

I think the story will get extremely interesting re: time-travel as sound as Foul starts actively messing with things, which, I believe, will really start in ernest halfway in the 3rd book. We have seen a little foreshadowing of that with the Jer/croyel and Rog...

The Arch of Time trembles with each letter that SRD puts forth towards the completion of the Chronicles...


I too, think that SRD is gonna pull out all the stops now in this second half of the series. I believe that we'll start seeing changes in events in the past, that completely change events in the future. Remember, TC is human again, I think that any knowledge that he held as the Time Warden would be invalidated if what has already come before is changed. That would be a really good way to counter that dang POV problem that has been mentioned before...

I don't think that creating paradoxes or changing the past will break the Arch. Hell, how much of what we know about the Land's history do you think is a direct result of muddling in the past? I would bet a lot. Is there ever any mention of Melenkurion Skyweir splitting in the First Chronicles? I think that mountain was whole B.L.A. (Before Linden Avery).....

sweetbread wrote:Is there ever any mention of Melenkurion Skyweir splitting in the First Chronicles? I think that mountain was whole B.L.A. (Before Linden Avery).....

Yes. It was two peaks in the First Chronicles. Even the map shows it this way. I remember when they got there in FR, thinking "wait! he just said it was one massive peak! Huh??" I don't remember if there was any explanation in TIW of how it (and Rivenrock) split... maybe just a comment about "a massive earthquake in the distant past."

As to your comment about much of the past changing, I can just picture the AATE What Has Gone Before Chapter:

"Thomas Covenant was a normal man until he contracted leprosy. He was then translated to a strange placed which called itself the Land. In the Land he found out that... and then... well, never mind. None of that really happened.

Chapter One..."