Well done, earthbrah! I guess I need to start there. You teased out many interesting threads. And, for a chapter about questions, it is indeed a good idea to outline the questions Linden asks.
I have tons of notes on this chapter. And so many responses to catch up with. I will organize it as best I can, in the order that the chapter presents them. I hope readers get to the end, there's good stuff towards the end.
"Difficult Questions". Here we have another chapter title with many meanings. Asking Esmer questions is like pulling teath. And it is certainly very difficult for Esmer to answer them. And then, there is the difficulty of understanding what Esmer's answer's really mean.
And guess what? This chapter demonstrates that Linden is not going to be able to solve her problems by asking questions. Everything is set up to make it difficult to ask questions of anyone. In the end she will have to act.
Here its clear that she does not consider herself a true hero of the Land. She feels she is much less. This not only underscores a feeling of inadequacy,She had repeatedly insisted that she could not be compared to the Land's true heroes; and now the greatest of them had come.
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but it is the beginning of a thought process that leads to her decision later in the book, on which she acts in the final chapter. Covenant's arrival, and his promise that he knows what to do, is the spark.
Well, I don't think it's something quite that literal. She speaks of finding herself within the context of being stunned by her loves refusals, and discovering that much of what she has done seems meaningless. She's going to Glimmermere to get away and remember how things were between herself and Covanant.Malik23 wrote:Several times, Donaldson repeats that Linden is going to Glimmermere to find her identity. Why, specifically, does he stress that her identity is at issue?
"She hoped to recapture at the eldritch lake some sense of what she and Covenant had meant to each other; of who she was." Linden has become, understandably, unmoored; the ground on which she has stood for so long has fallen away beneath her. When that happens, you need to do a lot of self-examination, to discover what you can salvage from what was important to you, to try and find a new direction, and to quiet a raging spirit. She wants to contemplate in peace why she loved Covenant, reexamine why she thought he loved her. Was this really sure? She must check memories.
This is what I see here by "recapturing a sense of who she was". In the sense that people are the sum of their actions, Linden needs to recalculate a new sum because all her actions and planned actions have changed.
And of course, she starts to spot discrepencies. You need the Staff of Law. And "that he forgave her effortlessly."
Is this really true? I though the plateau was free of the Sunbane?When she had walked into these hills with Thomas Covenant, the Sunbane had still ruled the Upper Land; and a desert sun had destroyed every vestige of vegetation. She and Covenant had crossed hard dirt and bare stone baked by the arid unnatural heat of the sun's corona.
I really admire Linden's logic and intuition here. She has figured out something important from scant clues.But now she thought that perhaps his words three and a half thousand years ago explained his unexpected appearance here.He had been transformed in death: Lord Foul had burned away the venom, leaving Covenant's spirit purified. As a result, he may have become a kind of perfect being — who could wield wild magic and fear nothing.
If that were true, he had come to retrieve his ring.
Malik23 wrote:Donaldson uses this as a quasi-explanation of why Covenant's inexplicable behavior in the last chapter could in fact make sense. But was that the whole reason why we took this trip into memories? Or is that merely the way the author steers his way back to the present?
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I think it was done so that in the next chapter, it will appear that she was correct, which would help us believe that Covenant's request is entirely plausible, because it is consistent with Linden's own premonition. And -- do not forget -- it may in fact yet turn out to be true.
earthbrah wrote:What is it about imperfection that allows one to do "perfect works"? ... The perfection lies in accepting your inadequacy, facing your imperfection, accepting that it is an inherent part of you, and not letting that stop you from acting.
I'm not so sure. If you are perfect, you are not inadequate, almost by definition. Perfection is perfect sufficiency.
Although I do agree that Donaldson's own feelings of inadequacy in writing this story must have shaped the inadequacies felt in the story itself. Please, let's not call him reckless and ignorant and demand that he stop!
Woo hoo! Way to go, Mahrtiir. You put the Haruchai to shame. They perpetually doubted Linden, and are wrong; the Ramen will back Linden to the end, and are right! The Haruchai judged, but the Ramen forewent the arrogance of judgement and listened to the prescient earthpowerful Horses of Ra."But know this, Linden Avery, and be certain of it. I speak for the Ramen, as for the Cords in my care. We stand with you. The Ranyhyn have declared their service. Stave of the Haruchai has done so. I also would make my meaning plain.
"It appears that the Unbeliever has come among us, he who was once the Ringthane, and who twice accomplished Fangthane's defeat, if the tales of him are sooth. Doubtless his coming holds vast import, and naught now remains as it was." Mahrtiir's tone hinted at battle as he pronounced, "Yet the Ramen stand with you. We cannot do less than the Ranyhyn have done. To him they reared when he was the Ringthane, but to you they gave unprecedented homage, bowing their heads. And they are entirely true. If you see peril in the Unbeliever's presence, then we will oppose it at your side. Come good or ill, boon or bane, we stand with you."
Now THAT is a perfect summary, at an appropos point.She had been given too many warnings, and she comprehended none of them.
Now, I honestly was expecting her to wait for the Mahdoubt (whom she sent Stave to find) and ask her the questions. I was very surprised when she called Esmer. I believe I was subtly misdirected by Donaldson. Anyone else? Ah, I see Relayer was as well. So it's not just me.earthbrah wrote:She sends Mahrtiir away before reaching the lake, goes for a dip, gets physically cleansed and healed, then ascends a hill to summon Esmer.
earthbrah wrote:However, he arrives with about three score ur-viles, and about half as many Waynhim.
This is somewhat worthy of mention. Esmer has brought more Demondim spawn from the past to the present. The original ones are suspicious, but the new ones only want to help. Specifically, they want to help Linden. Esmer uses the words "worthy of devoir" -- worthy of duty and responsibility. They left their time for the future, with a guy whom they utterly distrust and who loaths them, to attend to this devoir.She is doing something critically important to the Demondim spawn.
Although she has no idea herself.
"‘Good cannot be accomplished by evil means’, yet that hasn’t stopped you from doing the things you’ve done. Why should I be judged more strictly?"
Good reply! Esmer takes sh*t from nobody. THOOLAH likes this response.
But let's remember what Donaldson said about "evil means" in the ... *gulp* ... in the GI.
You, THOOLAH, even Linden herself, assume that her means are evil because you, THOOLAH, and even Linden herself judge them by the ends you think you perceive. Creating a ceasure is an evil end, therefore Linden using them as a means to travel in time is evil. But that's not Donaldson's view. He doesn't want us to judge that way. He wants Linden to learn not to judge that way, too, I feel.In the Gradual Interview, Donaldson wrote:If you accept the notion that "The ends do not justify the means," then you also have to accept that "The ends cannot be used to evaluate the means." And yet somehow I suspect that every "mistake" attributed to, say, Linden involves judging her actions by their outcomes.
(03/22/2008)
hue of bone wrote:What struck me whilst I re-read this chapter was this reply by Esmer:
"You inquire of Kastenessen, and I reply. That which appears evil need not have been so from the beginning, and need not remain so until the end."
You have hit the nail on the head here. The question was, did the Demondim allow C & J into Revelstone. And this was his answer. This is cryptic. But it can almost be puzzled out. Esmer is, in his conflicted way, trying to tell Linden that someone's alignment has changed. Someone has become evil. And that explains the Demondim's actions. Probably he means Kastenessen, since he ordered the Demondim via Anele - that he is now a force of evil (rather than just a pesky Elohim squirming out of his duty. But he might be speaking instead of Covenant, or Jeremiah, or the Demondim, or Revelstone.
And whomever is evil -- whomever was led down the path of despite by Foul or his ravers -- can be turned to good before the end.
That's much to think about.
Something about this exchange leads me to believe that manacles are definitely NOT fetters. That Linden is misinterpreting. But what else could they be?Esmer's green eyes seemed to spume with anger or dread as he pronounced hoarsely, "Manacles."
She gaped at him in surprise. What, manacles? Fetters?
Also, would Linden use the word "fetters", like, ever? Would anyone born since 1900? Linden should have said "Mancles? Handcuffs?" -- that would have been more realistic.
"To the ur-viles, I offered opportunity to see fulfilled the mighty purpose which they began in the making of Vain."
Wow! Pow! Holy Cow! Vain's purpose has not yet been fulfilled.
The new Staff of Law was not the end of Vain's purpose. There's more! And all the urviles have dared a trip from the past two witness it. And to serve Linden in order to see it fulfilled.
If this is really what this means, this is a super stunner shocker revelation. (And yes, I use the term revelation.
)Will Vain be back? Will Findail? Vain had said, "It is not death, it is purpose."
Will it have something to do with manacles? I cannot help but see a connection between manacles and heels. And Vain was all over them heels. Maybe the manacles are replacements for the heels, allowing the Staff to become something more.
And Linden really, really needs something more.
Something about this reminds me strongly of a thought I had years ago. (See the whole thing here for the full logic. It was like my 14th post ever.)earthbrah wrote:Q13: What is the shadow on the hearts of the Elohim? What does that mean? Why didn’t they stop Kastenessen from breaking free?
R13: Though the Elohim hold that they are equal to all things, they are not. If they were, they would not fear the Worm being roused.
They saw no need to preserve Kasenessen’s Durance. You are the Wildwielder, returned to the Land. The skurj pose no threat to the Elohim, though they are ruled by Kastenessen’s will. You will act to oppose both. Thus, the Elohim see no need for concern.
Many of the Elohim's actions, regarding Vain, Covenant, and Linden, can be explained by the fact that they cannot save the world themselves, but their entire sense of self demands that they can. Covenant and Linden rub their nose in it.wayfriend wrote:So on to my hypothesis: The Elohim have the power to save the world, but they are unable to tolerate that they cannot do this without assistance.
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Also, this passage ties in with what happens a few chapters later, when a certain person also says about the Elohim that they won't do anything as long as there's someone else who can do it.
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