Kevin's Watch

Hi,
New to the watch, but I've been reading Coveneant for over thirty years now....

It seems pretty clear to me that LA doesn't trust herself. She doesn't believe she has enough power to do what needs to be done, or doesn't believe she can use law and wild magic at the same time, and she seems to be at ease with abandoning health to her sense of vengeance or single-minded determination to abandon the land to the salvation of her son.

LA's self-distrust explains why she is devoted to Liand -- she needs his unquestioning devotion to her. It explains why she treasures Stave's loyalty, and the Ramen's. It explains why the Masters' repudiation of her damages her so.

My question is, how does LA's self-despite differ from self-despite? If they don't differ, what does this say about the land itself -- especially if the construct is a refelection of LA herself (assuming she is the primary constructor now, and not Thomas Covenant)?

Hope I'm not breaking any unwritten rules...

Look at the Land as metaphor for internal workings, so Lord Foul is viewed as the personification of self-despite, and you can see how the Chronicles are all about TC (and soon LA) coming to terms with and succeeding despite (hah!) their own failings.
The only difference between self-mistrust and self-despite is one of scale. Self-hatred starts with a lack of self-respect, or a failure in belief of what one can accomplish by will alone. The magics of the Land are based on power of will, not necessarily skill. Linden has quite a lot of faith in her medical skills, but anything that relies solely on her emotional self, like wild magic, that touches the sore spots of her family history or her love, makes her flinchy. She believes she has no skill as a person, only as a doctor, so she relies on the strengths of others (and their faith in her) to accomplish things - but she also believes this reliance upon her friends is a weakness, which only further undermines her self-confidence. Other than the obvious vow to stop at nothing to save Jerry, which also scares her, she is afraid to make big decisions based on her emotions alone, unless she has friends encouraging - or frenemies goading - her.

Oh - welcome to The Watch, by the way! Post often!

dw

[quote=""I live.""]My question is, how does LA's self-despite differ from self-despite?[/quote]
I think that the way you framed this question underscores a certain amount of prejudice, no?

Self-despite is hating yourself.

Self-distrust is fear that you can't control yourself.

Linden's feelings of inadequacy are neither. And when events really are beyond your capacity to handle, feeling inadequate is the sane response; if Linden had felt equal to all things that had happened to her in the FInal Cs, I'd seriously question her view of the world.

Feelings of inadequacy are certainly critical to the resolution of the Final Cs. In an interview, Donaldson says, "Linden Avery, like High Lord Mhoram before her, has a few things to say about the redemptive potential of inadequacy." So we will learn how her inadequacies redeem the Land in the end. Much like we learned how Covenant's distrust of power and guilt were utterly necessary to the victory of the First Cs.

Note, however, that Donalson compares Linden's actions to Mhoram's, and favorably, and puts it in a positive light. This is quite at odds with your rather damning post. I can't help but notice you've attempted to embed some huge assumptions into the basis of your question, assumptions which I (for one) don't accept.

I'd be interested if you can point out any passages in the book that support these assumptions and would change my mind. Or if you're willing to examine the idea that you've chosen a conclusion about Linden first, and are then reinterpreting events in the story to fit the conclusion. For example, anyone would welcome support during difficult times; claiming that it is desired to prop up a false sense of importance (your claim) requires either that the book says so (which it doesn't) or that you've taken the view that her character is essentially warped as a given.

Not to mention that your own conclusions seem self-contradictory. Why would she "self-distrust" if, at the same time, she's going to damn the Land for the sake of her son? Doesn't the self-doubt arise from being inadequate to the Land's need? And if her importance is self-assumed, then why do Liand and Stave think she's so important? Why could it not be that she actually is? And if she actually is, how can it be a false sense of importance? And if her feelings of inadequacy are a delusion brought on by self-despite, then you must already know how she can save the Land - which I don't believe.

So I seen no self-despite in Linden (yet). I see now self-mistrust (yet). I see feelings of inadequacy. I cannot even call them self-doubt, since they seem to be very realistic feelings -- she should feel inadequate.

Remember Hile Troy! He was dangerous to the Land precisely because he felt adequate when he was not!

Interesting topic "I live" (and welcome to the watch! ) and I like your reply DukkhaWaynhim.

wayfriend wrote:[quote=""I live.""]I think that the way you framed this question underscores a certain amount of prejudice, no?

Self-despite is hating yourself.

Self-distrust is fear that you can't control yourself.

[/quote]

I'm not sure I agree with this Wayfriend. I don't think there is any "prejudice" in the question asked. I think that we have to remember that people interpret texts given their own life experience (how else are they supposed to read the text?--that's why people can often read books over the years and get something new and different from them...don't you think. That's certainly my experience.).

I'll go with your definition of self-despite. Self-distrust however doesn't necessarily have to be fear that one can't control oneself, does it? Example: I can "distrust" my ability to be a good mother. I might think that I will fail my son over the years and that he'll turn out to be as f*cked up as I am. That's got nothing to do with fearing I can't control myself, only fear of failure due to my failing as a human being (or of my "humanity"). It doesn't necessarily involve my ability to "control" myself.

I don't think "I live"'s post is damning. I actually tend to agree with the vibe of what he's said. And, no, I'm not going to post quotes to support that feeling. It's a feeling I get (I feel that she is slipping into self-despite and I certainly see self-mistrust...and I feel that from the *undercurrent* of what I'm reading).

Do the evil characters we meet truly feel Self-despite? They certainly hate / despise things of the world. The One Forest for the Ravers, life for the despiser. Perhaps they also hate themselves in the meaning that they hate the nature of their life, the limitations the world has put on them. But do they truly hate themselves? If they could free themselves from the life their world appointed to them. Would the despiser despise himself if he managed to free himself from his prison in the Arch of time?

For the most part, the hatred of the world the evil characters express is a manifestation of their hatred of themselves. It is quite possible to feel inadequate, or to distrust your own abilities without hating yourself.

Wayfriend's point about the Mhoram comparison are interesting. He only became powerful when he discovered within himself the capacity for the thing he most hated - desecration. That did not lead him to self hatred, however, but rather to a deeper understanding of the need to be a complete being. He learned that true power comes from being able to accept, integrate and control all aspects of yourself, rather than deny their existence.

IrrationalSanity wrote:He learned that true power comes from being able to accept, integrate and control all aspects of yourself, rather than deny their existence.

Quite appropriate considering the speculation on the ending of the final Chrons

Seareach wrote:I don't think there is any "prejudice" in the question asked.

The original question was "how does LA's self-despite differ from self-despite". The assumption in the question is that LA's self-despite (and the actions attributed to it in the rest of the question) are presumed true. That's pre-judgement.

Seareach wrote:Example: I can "distrust" my ability to be a good mother.

That's what I would call self-doubt. The inability to believe that you will succeed is self-doubt.

Self-mistrust is, literally, you don't trust yourself. Like, you have a whole chocolate cheesecake on the counter, and you don't trust yourself to not eat a piece. If you don't trust yourself, it's because you know you might not do what you know you should do. Ergo, self-control.

Seareach wrote:I don't think "I live"'s post is damning.

It is. Damning doesn't mean wrong, damning means very negative. The post was very negative of Linden.

IrrationalSanity wrote:For the most part, the hatred of the world the evil characters express is a manifestation of their hatred of themselves.

That's what I think, too. I think that's a theme of the entire Chronicles. Self-Hate leads to Desecration.

IrrationalSanity wrote:Wayfriend's point about the Mhoram comparison are interesting. He only became powerful when he discovered within himself the capacity for the thing he most hated - desecration. That did not lead him to self hatred, however, but rather to a deeper understanding of the need to be a complete being. He learned that true power comes from being able to accept, integrate and control all aspects of yourself, rather than deny their existence.

I think that's correct. But I also see more. Mhoram's response to his inadequacy was to stay and defend the Land to the best of his ability *anyway*. He didn't flee. He didn't turn to evil. He didn't Desecrate, Despair, or Despise. He served. And he was redeemed.

wayfriend wrote:Mhoram's response to his inadequacy was to stay and defend the Land to the best of his ability *anyway*. He didn't flee. He didn't turn to evil. He didn't Desecrate, Despair, or Despise. He served. And he was redeemed.

In this respect, he's very similar to the Masters. The difference being, of course, that the Masters seek to impose their viewpoint on others around them. In fact, this is the major difference I see between the Masters and the Haruchai of old.

H: "We suffice."
M: "We suffice, and you do too."

Again, I see this being reflected in Linden (or, rather, I see her impositions on those around her reflected in the Masters), something which fills me with foreboding.

I think the final Chrons will be much more about Linden accepting her inner despiser than Covenant. After all, TC has repeatedly told LF that "we're the same." He never seemed to struggle against his self despite so much as struggle against his self worth.

Linden, on the other hand, hates her inner despiser. She's afraid of her own capacity for evil; "If good could not be accomplished by evil means, then she would believe her means were not evil." She has already seen darkness within herself, and come to terms with it. But she hasn't confronted her whole capacity for evil yet; particularly, her willingness to harm others in pursuit of a "higher good." There was a famous study done with Shock treatments just after the second World War that dealt with this; sadly, I don't remember the names of the researchers or the study (giyf: Stanley Milgram conducted the experiment in the '60s (neurophilosophy.wordpress.com/2006/12/23/people-are-willing-to-commit-virtual-torture-too/)). Many people are willing to commit surprising atrocities in the name of a "higher good"; Linden knows this about herself, but refuses to acknowledge it ("then she would believe her means were not evil"). I believe she refuses to acknowledge it because of how she fears and hates that aspect of herself.

One of the things I love most about TC is his refusal to make sacrificies for "the higher good." Witness his refusal of Mhoram's summons; he was willing to sacrifice the "greater good" to save a little girl.

In fact, TC has always been unflinching in his acceptance of his own weaknesses and failures - this is one of the other things I love most about him. His own brutal honesty has always resonated with me, and earned my compassion for him.

Linden, on the other hand, just scares me.

wayfriend wrote:

Seareach wrote:I don't think there is any "prejudice" in the question asked.

The original question was "how does LA's self-despite differ from self-despite". The assumption in the question is that LA's self-despite (and the actions attributed to it in the rest of the question) are presumed true. That's pre-judgement.

Seareach wrote:Example: I can "distrust" my ability to be a good mother.

That's what I would call self-doubt. The inability to believe that you will succeed is self-doubt.

Self-mistrust is, literally, you don't trust yourself. Like, you have a whole chocolate cheesecake on the counter, and you don't trust yourself to not eat a piece. If you don't trust yourself, it's because you know you might not do what you know you should do. Ergo, self-control.

Seareach wrote:I don't think "I live"'s post is damning.

It is. Damning doesn't mean wrong, damning means very negative. The post was very negative of Linden.

Wayfriend. Thanks for the definitions. Gosh...what would I do without you telling me what I mean, what is and isn't and the like. Shit! I never realised I was *so* thick.

...

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Do the evil characters we meet truly feel Self-despite? They certainly hate / despise things of the world. The One Forest for the Ravers, life for the despiser. Perhaps they also hate themselves in the meaning that they hate the nature of their life, the limitations the world has put on them. But do they truly hate themselves? If they could free themselves from the life their world appointed to them. Would the despiser despise himself if he managed to free himself from his prison in the Arch of time?

Can "despite" Love it self?...no...Can a being with learned "despite" in its heart and mind ..Love it self? ..yes..if the being grasps a level of Love,,that precludes a freedom from "despite".