Kevin's Watch

Firelions: Lions of fire or just lava via creative writing?

Are they actual beings like the Skurj?


I always thought that they were just lava with maybe a little of what Gandalf did to make the rushing water at the Fords look like horses.


If they were lion-like creatures what happens when they cool on the mountains side then? Do they roll back up into the crater at the top?

Hard to imagine, I know.. But I believe in the Lion shaped fire/lava thing. And I feel that these Fire Lions need to have a level of sentience to know to only destroy the enemies of the land.

ninjaboy wrote:Hard to imagine, I know.. But I believe in the Lion shaped fire/lava thing. And I feel that these Fire Lions need to have a level of sentience to know to only destroy the enemies of the land.

But the Quest for the Staff of Law would have been killed by the Lions if not for Covenant summoning the Ranyhyn which got them off the mountain faster than the lava flow.

It was lava that killed Drool too not "firelions".

I put real, Lion-like creatures. I believe that they draw "inanimate" lava in their wake. They may be of limited intelligence (not unlike the Skurj).

In Berek's awakening and summons, I think he probably maintained the presence of himself and his awakening Earthpower. The lions, therefore, recognized that he was their summoner, thus working only against his enemies.

In Covenant's summons, that was just a flash of wild magic through the Staff. Enough to waken them, but not able to provide an ongoing nexus of "control". They may however have been attracted by the power and therefore posed a danger.

Consider also the description of Linden's awareness of the Land as she was healing it. The fire lions were described (IIRC) as crouched and resting, awaiting their next summons.

Lava. It's just flowery imagery.

Check the Glossary in the books. They state that the Fire Lions are the lava flow of Mount Thunder.

My vote is that Fire-Lions are like the Wraiths of Andelain ... only on a bigger scale. The Fire-Lions are to Wraiths as gorillas are to capuchin monkeys. (We have other similarities in beings in the Chronicles elsewhere: ur-viles and waynhim; men and Giants.) So they're not little candle-flames, they're great beings of raging flame. Fire elementals, if you will.


I can't see it as poetic license for lava at all. There was lava in the Chronicles, for example at Foul's creche. No one called it a river of Fire-Lions. And surely the people who would eventually be gravelingas would recognize molten stone.

Second, if you allow that things like the Wraiths exist, there is no need to explain the Fire-Lions away as lava. The Land has magical creatures; there's no need to find rational explanations elsewhere.

Yes, I do see as I read the text that there Donaldson uses some imagery in his descriptions, imagery that suggests lava. Flowing, and spewing. But I think that this is meant to take us in the opposite direction: he's trying to associate the rampage of the Fire-Lions with Mount Thunder itself raging and attacking. Mt. Thunder erupting like a volcano is a natural image to draw upon for a mountain attacking. So the Fire Lions attack as if they were the mountain's lava pouring down in their heads.

That's what I believe, and I'm sticking to it.

I have to agree with Wayfriend, didnt Berek Call upon the firelions after his binding agreement with the earthpower destroying all his enemies but himself?Lava would have no distinction between Berek and a Cavewight. Also Amok said that if Elena were to call upon the Firelions of Mt thunder to attack Lord Foul THEY would instantly obey,...mere lava would take quite some time to get from MT thunder to Ridjeck Thome, and once it did what could it do? he could just summon up some water and make a firelion statue.

could be they are the creators of wraiths(Stretching) or even something like the colossus of the Fall. or maybe another Elohim doing its duty, so far those firelions have only answered TCs Ring and prothals staff(have to give the ring full credit) and for Berek..so it seems the firelions are fairly choosy just like the Elohim. only 2 appearances in the lands history that we have been exposed to so far.

I think I agree with these explanations... especially

The Land has magical creatures; there's no need to find rational explanations elsewhere.

I don't think Berek "called upon" the fire-lions directly. He didn't know they existed... they responded to his oath and expression of Earthpower.

We also have to remember that Mt. Thunder almost certainly IS (or was) a volcano; it sits on a giant fault (Landsdrop) and is clearly shaped like one. It makes sense that the fire-lions express an essence of Earthpower which is similar to the essence of the mountain.

Relayer wrote:I think I agree with these explanations... especially

The Land has magical creatures; there's no need to find rational explanations elsewhere.

I don't think Berek "called upon" the fire-lions directly. He didn't know they existed... they responded to his oath and expression of Earthpower.

We also have to remember that Mt. Thunder almost certainly IS (or was) a volcano; it sits on a giant fault (Landsdrop) and is clearly shaped like one. It makes sense that the fire-lions express an essence of Earthpower which is similar to the essence of the mountain.

hmmm using what resources surround it? that would make sense essence of Firelion taking its shape with molten lava and fire, that works for me. sort of like the arghule using Ice as its primary weapon.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

ninjaboy wrote:Hard to imagine, I know.. But I believe in the Lion shaped fire/lava thing. And I feel that these Fire Lions need to have a level of sentience to know to only destroy the enemies of the land.

But the Quest for the Staff of Law would have been killed by the Lions if not for Covenant summoning the Ranyhyn which got them off the mountain faster than the lava flow.

It was lava that killed Drool too not "firelions".

You don't KNOW that the Quest for the Staff of Law would have been consumed by the Fire Lions / Lava. Sure, the Quest were scared that they'd be consumed (which is why they summonned the Ranhyn), but you can't say for sure that they'd have been consumed by the Lava. They didn't give it the opportunity to avoid them.

Bloodguard Bob: They know not to attack us, right?

Lord Mormon: Ah ... not so much.

Banner: Here kitty ... here kitty ... here kitty ... <bolts>

Episode 39 MUST be mentioned in this thread.

Blackhawk wrote:I have to agree with Wayfriend, didnt Berek Call upon the firelions after his binding agreement with the earthpower destroying all his enemies but himself?Lava would have no distinction between Berek and a Cavewight. Also Amok said that if Elena were to call upon the Firelions of Mt thunder to attack Lord Foul THEY would instantly obey,...mere lava would take quite some time to get from MT thunder to Ridjeck Thome, and once it did what could it do? he could just summon up some water and make a firelion statue.

Well that was the whole point of the unintended consequences that goes with the Power of Command.
If Elena had made that command it would have happened whether they were fire-beings or mere lava, much to the harm of the earth/Land.
Btw, this was talked about in another thread, we have no way of knowing what Foul's powers are. Who says he could summon water?

wayfriend wrote:

Bloodguard Bob: They know not to attack us, right?

Lord Mormon: Ah ... not so much.

Banner: Here kitty ... here kitty ... here kitty ... <bolts>

Great. As if our two cats didn't already think they ran the show around here. Now they have to look over my shoulder and see this? Sigh...

Back on topic, I also think that the firelions were significantly more than sentient lava. They may have been in the lava and of the lava, but I feel that they were individual unique beings. No explicit detailed explanation needed for me. I'm easy.

SRD actually did give an explanation on our show. Theh were lion creatures but they destroyed everything in their path and could only run downhill as lava does.

Cameraman Jenn wrote:SRD actually did give an explanation on our show. Theh were lion creatures but they destroyed everything in their path and could only run downhill as lava does.

What happened when they got to the bottom? How did they get back in? (Unfortunately I don't remember the book passage details so I can't speculate. Gotta go look it up!)

It wasn't addressed so I just assume by magic.

I can't believe you guys doubt they are lions! What, are you going to start doubting me next?

Don't worry about them; like the Sphinx said, 'those who doubt their powers only give power to their doubts'.

Andy Kalish wrote:

Cameraman Jenn wrote:SRD actually did give an explanation on our show. Theh were lion creatures but they destroyed everything in their path and could only run downhill as lava does.

What happened when they got to the bottom? How did they get back in? (Unfortunately I don't remember the book passage details so I can't speculate. Gotta go look it up!)

hehe..when they got to the bottom, being cats they probably took a 12 hour nap.

or they took a stage left back into the maw of Mt Thunder and jumped back into the Pool of lava Vain and Findail fell into, possibly awaiting their next summons?