Kevin's Watch

Yeah, I actually *like* the so-and-so. Does that make me weird? I know a lot of readers loathe Thomas Covenant, even if they love the Land and the other characters -- they like the book despite the main character. (That might be the point of an anti-hero. To them, the other characters are the real heroes.) Is that attitude common even among fans? Or do fans tend to "get" TC more?

Now that doesn't mean I don't want to slap him now and then. But of course, then he'll turn around and be the first (and only) one to say something that makes sense. And it's not like he doesn't have a reason to be angsty.

First Chronicles - grudging respect mixed with a bit of loathing
Second Chronicles - very much grew to like him, but he was well beyond his Unbelief then and fought as hard as could be expected, and sacrificed more than could be expected.

Me too.. when i first read the story the rape didnt make me want to quit reading but read more to find out what happens to this guy, then of course after the trials and tribulations and victory #1 he was Tolerable and even Respectful of his surroundings, taking off some of his whiny and unbelieving attitude for chronicles #2 hes a GREAT anti-heros Hero.

I like him, but I hate some of the things he does, the things he says to people in the first series. But as I said I like him, because... on my current re-read I'm at the point where Elena's telling him that she's the daughter of Lena etc.. He screws up but he hates himself for what he does to the land.. So I gotta feel some sort of empathy and respect for him. And sometimes I think I'm a lot like him, coz hell, I ain't a Saint.

I've always liked him, warts and all.

I began the first chronicles viewing TC as a bastard, however by book three, he became one of my favorite characters in literature (to this day, I prefer characters that are not blantently good or evil but can be either depending on what perspective you choose).

Yeah, pretty much what Orlion said. I wanted to kick his ass off a balcony when he was pissing and moaning in his chambers in TIW (actually, I wanted Bannor to kick him off a balcony). In dealing with TC I initially thought the the Lords had to be large transcendent beings, with unbelievable forgiveness. I was then quickly brought down to earth and saw them as mortal with their own limitations and problems...

It was not so much dislike for me, rather incomprehension. Throughout the first book I simply could not see how somebody who had been blessed with the event of having been transferred to a place like the Land could've shun so totally as TC did. But then I never had to spend months of my life learning some rigorous discipline just to be able to survive and never experienced total alienation from the people around me.
And though I always get strung up whenever I read the sections where TC behaves like a complete jerk, I can understand his pains much better now. When Hile Troy came onto the scene he provided me a very good contrast to TC and I started to sympathize with Covenant's stance.

And I really do not think I could do better, even without being a leper outcast unclean, if I was thrown into a place the next moment and somebody told me my left ear has a magical power that could save the place and I had no idea what they were talking about...

amanibhavam wrote:It was not so much dislike for me, rather incomprehension. Throughout the first book I simply could not see how somebody who had been blessed with the event of having been transferred to a place like the Land could've shun so totally as TC did. But then I never had to spend months of my life learning some rigorous discipline just to be able to survive and never experienced total alienation from the people around me.

This, IMO, is probably the only thing that kept me from completely loathing TC. I guess in a way I felt empathy for him, so even at his least likable, I felt pity and sadness for him. Also, because of some personal things I was going through at the time, I found myself understanding the harsh, unyielding exterior he tried to keep between himself and everyone/everything else.

rdhopeca wrote:First Chronicles - grudging respect mixed with a bit of loathing
Second Chronicles - very much grew to like him, but he was well beyond his Unbelief then and fought as hard as could be expected, and sacrificed more than could be expected.

Well at least he progresses.

Blackhawk wrote:Me too.. when i first read the story the rape didnt make me want to quit reading but read more to find out what happens to this guy, then of course after the trials and tribulations and victory #1 he was Tolerable and even Respectful of his surroundings, taking off some of his whiny and unbelieving attitude for chronicles #2 hes a GREAT anti-heros Hero.

I know a lot of people stop reading after the rape. But I guess I had to find out what happened. (That act had more ripples than a bag of potato chips.) It was interesting to read other peoples' responses (I think on a usenet news group). One poster complained that he didn't seem to care, but it was so obvious that he was holding everything back. (Luckily another poster pointed that out. )

ninjaboy wrote:I like him, but I hate some of the things he does, the things he says to people in the first series. But as I said I like him, because... on my current re-read I'm at the point where Elena's telling him that she's the daughter of Lena etc.. He screws up but he hates himself for what he does to the land.. So I gotta feel some sort of empathy and respect for him. And sometimes I think I'm a lot like him, coz hell, I ain't a Saint.

At one point yesterday, I was thinking "You can't say that to Foamfollower!" But at the same time, I could tell he said what he did as a defense mechanism. And defense mechanisms (both physical and mental) are a vital part of his life.

Cutting up responses so I don't end up with an epistle.

danlo wrote:Yeah, pretty much what Orlion said. I wanted to kick his ass off a balcony when he was pissing and moaning in his chambers in TIW (actually, I wanted Bannor to kick him off a balcony). In dealing with TC I initially thought the the Lords had to be large transcendent beings, with unbelievable forgiveness. I was then quickly brought down to earth and saw them as mortal with their own limitations and problems...

Oh, yes, the pissing and moaning in TIW did get on my last nerve. He was lucky Bannor was a Bloodguard with an oath and all. Otherwise, he might have invented a new sport -- Spin the Unbeliever, or Kick the Unbeliever Off a Cliff or something like that.

amanibhavam wrote:It was not so much dislike for me, rather incomprehension. Throughout the first book I simply could not see how somebody who had been blessed with the event of having been transferred to a place like the Land could've shun so totally as TC did. But then I never had to spend months of my life learning some rigorous discipline just to be able to survive and never experienced total alienation from the people around me.

Yes, the leprosy is a biggie. No, it didn't excuse his bad moments (just as alcoholism doesn't excuse drunk driving), but it explained it. It shaped what he became, more than most other diseases could have. I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall when SRD attended his father's speech and got the idea for TC -- because that must have been a heckuva speech. Too bad they didn't have YouTube back then.

amanibhavam wrote:And though I always get strung up whenever I read the sections where TC behaves like a complete jerk, I can understand his pains much better now. When Hile Troy came onto the scene he provided me a very good contrast to TC and I started to sympathize with Covenant's stance.

Does that make him the anti-TC? You know, it probably does. He was the Un-unbeliever. If my nephew makes it that far once I give him the books, I wonder what he'll think of Hile Troy?... He's into heroic fantasy, so he might relate to him more, at least at first.

amanibhavam wrote:And I really do not think I could do better, even without being a leper outcast unclean, if I was thrown into a place the next moment and somebody told me my left ear has a magical power that could save the place and I had no idea what they were talking about...

I would probably pass out. No, wait, I'd be like Hudson in Aliens, the one who kept saying things like "That's it man, game over man, game over!!" and "They're gonna come in hear and they're gonna get us!" I remember reading that the actor thought people would hate his character because he was scared all the time, but he turned out to be one of the most memorable. People can relate to Hudson because he had the sense to be scared.

I have never liked TC. Even after he started to commit himself to the Land. I wouldn't have liked in him pre-leper, leper nor leper free. He is a whiney, scared little wuss. And I don't really don't buy into the "because he was a leper" bit. Dude, just use the hurtloam & commit! Linden was this but 10 times worse in the second chronicles. The excellent characters and the Land are what made these books so great for me. Subconsciously though TC & LA frustrate me just enough to draw me to them - weasels. Great books.

Oh man, such an all encompassing subject.
In 1991 I and a bro were sent to the amazon basin in Venezuela for 2 months ( I'm military).
We weren't on a war crusade or fighting drug lords or any such crap. We were there to interact with the native villages and explain to them how democracy works, that's all. No hidden agenda, just, how crap works.

I had the first three books with me while there and read them three times. On more than one occasion, I was asked what I was reading and in my bastard spanish I explained, The more I talked, the more I started to relate to Covenant.
Scared crapless? 10 points.
Can't understand the locals? 10 points
Recognizing I have something they want? 2 points
Giving them what they want? 5 points
Satisfaction? I still to this day don't know. 1 point.
Successful mission? 3 points

Point is, they could care less what I could offer them in the future, what could I promise them NOW.
I gave them my rapala fillet knife since after showing them how to fillet fish instead of steaking them they thought that was an incredible feat.

Covenant was put in an impossible situation from which someone who does not believe it is real, in fact as he says many times CANNOT believe it is real because that belief will kill him dead cannot expose himself.

I was lucky, I knew I would eventually get to go home. TC had no such assurance and worse, if he was going insane, no chance of recovery.

Well done SRD, well done.

All TC's reactions are normal considering his circumstances. In the "real" world, he's shunned by everyone. No one wants anything to do with him or wants anything from him and they even pay his bills and deliver his food to keep him from coming among them. He has lost his family, his social position, and everything that made him feel human, and all for something he had zero control over and could not have changed for all the world. Then he is hurled into an unknown place where everyone idolizes him, expect great and impossible feats from him, and he is praised and adored across the entire Land, for things he never did and had zero control over. His ordeal with his leprosy is the only thing that kept him from curling up in a ball and screaming until he died. He should have at the very least gone irreparably insane. I never hated Covenant. I felt sorry for him starting with the hospital scene where Joan told him she was leaving and taking Roger, and it kept going all the way through every page of every book. I saw his every action and reaction as a result of his unfair life. Sure, he had control over his choices. But not over what brought him to make them. He landed up a better human being, albeit eventually a dead one, because of his suffering. And he made peace with himself. I love the man personally. And I'd be like LA and not go away either. His belligerence would have fascinated me to the point where I'd have to know what made him that way. TC is a genius of a hero. SRD rocks, I proclaim.

I know you're brand new here Sharguild, and you may seen cussing in other places on the Watch, but I really don't allow cursing here so I have edited you post and Dawngreeter's too. Folks if you see stuff that I've missed please PM me or one of the other mods. If you use cussing to make a joke I might let that stand-but for now I'm deciding whether or not to delete your knock-knock joke.

I always identified strongly with TC, though at the time I was more bitter. At the moment I'm leaning to understanding his plight. As a writer, I find the attention to detail with which Covenant's leprosy forces him into a corner and hardens his heart very realistic, and I can completely empathize with his responses.

I can also understand how taxing on a person it can be to suddenly be coerced out of your society or made to be strange. I know this feeling, and had I spent years in alienation, like he, and lost everything at such a high point in my life (the book, Joan, Roger), then I too would have constructed quite the shell around me and been very self-defensive. The Land would have looked like an insult or a lie.

Also, I think some of you might be discounting the total shock that would happen to you mentally upon being plucked and transported into this new world. Imagine having just been in a possible accident. I would be on edge knowing I'd been hit by a car in real life (possibly), and am now just tip-toeing through the tulips.

So yeah, I like TC. He's one of the reasons I read, and had it been somebody like Hile I would've closed the book.

Sharguild wrote:Covenant was put in an impossible situation from which someone who does not believe it is real, in fact as he says many times CANNOT believe it is real because that belief will kill him dead cannot expose himself.

I still think the First Chrons is ahead of its time, or either it goes over people's heads, because no one can understand that a person like TC is being put into something where the world not only accepts him but wants him to be a messiah. It's not only something that makes his long-trained defenses reel but it's almost a huge, garish joke and one that would, in my case, leave me overwhelmed and feeling a lot of doubt.

Critteranne wrote:Yeah, I actually *like* the so-and-so. Does that make me weird? I know a lot of readers loathe Thomas Covenant, even if they love the Land and the other characters -- they like the book despite the main character. (That might be the point of an anti-hero. To them, the other characters are the real heroes.) Is that attitude common even among fans? Or do fans tend to "get" TC more?

Now that doesn't mean I don't want to slap him now and then. But of course, then he'll turn around and be the first (and only) one to say something that makes sense. And it's not like he doesn't have a reason to be angsty.

I believe I read somewhere that SRD doesn't consider TC to be an anti-hero. He is presented as an average person in the "real" world thrown into an unusual circumstance.

TC always said things that make sense. Wasn't he considered a prophet in the Land? And when I go back to review his words in the first Chronicles, they always made sense in the long run: they are indeed very prophetic. His Unbelief introduced to the Land a healthy skepticism that characters like Elena, Mhoram, and even LF should have heeded.

I also thought his evaluations of the Lords were very astute, especially when he spoke with Mhoram between the krill in TIW, in Seer and Oracle.

Lord Foul wrote:I also thought his evaluations of the Lords were very astute, especially when he spoke with Mhoram between the krill in TIW, in Seer and Oracle.

His were powerful, prophetic words, coming from an objectivity that only a person not of that world can have. As usual, however, TC's truths were not intended to enlighten or help anybody but only to distract himself momentarily from his inner conflicts. TC remains intent on his own selfish purposes.

Later in TIW, TC was prophetic enough to lead Elena to her own destruction - even though, as a coward to the end, TC regretted his ploy when faced with the reality of the consequences, and then revealed everything to Elena at the last minute so he wouldn't have to face them. But it was too late to save her or himself. And upon returning to the "real" world, he almost died as a result of the anguish forced upon him by his delusion.

However, what he learned is that it doesn't matter if the Land is real or not, what mattered was that it is important to him. And so in TPTP he pursued a solution which was designed to benefit both himself and the Land.

It was a bit jarring (in a nice way) to see TC arguing with Mhoram from Mhoram's perspective, as it's there we see he's often working out the Land's problems only for himself.

I also never really understood the whole "you are closed to me", until Mhoram said TC came into his room addressing him in a "closed" tone. I'd never thought of it as a tone of voice; only that the people of the Land couldn't get the meaning. But it's often the sound, as if he's edgy or hiding some other undercurrent.

It's hard to understand how fundamentally different words are in the Land, such as "worship" being unknown to Mhoram, when TC asks if they worship trees and such. For Mhoram it's simply a fundamental fact, like air, that the Land has apparent power and that is is good and must be preserved.