Kevin's Watch

I can't remember if this has been brought up before, but isn't it possible that The Last Dark refers to something similar to a "heat death" for the Land?

If that's the case, the LF must be freaking out by now. All the Lords have to do is wait him out, and LF will be stuck forever in a cold, dark emptiness, with nothing to keep him company except the wailing sound of his own anguished screams.

I think its less specific than the freezing of the land. I'd put money on it being something that instills fear because it is not fully understood, like death. Or maybe the death and following grief after losing a lost one. Thats why I like either TC or LA is going to die and the last chapters will focus on how the other deals with it.

Yes, this subject has been batted around elsewhere,,yet allow me to include the idea..that the Last Dark may refer to, a Vile, or something of or related to Vileness..To have introduced the Vile in FR, seems unDonaldson like, if he doesn't have plans for it or them later on. These dark, ethereal, mysterious creatures of creativity may be just what is required for the regeneration of the Land...and as metaphor..for the rebirth of Linden.

Suspect it will follow similar lines to Neil Gaiman's 'A Game of You'

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sandman:_A_Game_of_You

At the end the creator releases the evil creature - who is after all just following his nature. He winds up the land and sends those who don't belong back home.

I had been thinking along the lines of the "Last Dark" being an implication of the act of giving up out of despair ... or at least the appearance of giving up like TC did at the end of WGW. Not meaning to imply that SRD would be repeating himself exactly. Anyway, seeing as I am always wrong I wager that I will be wrong about this as well.

If it is going to end all bright and cheery forever, then the last dark will surely be something to savor!

To me, the title implies that there is something following this "last dark." I don't think it's something that endures, this dark that is last...

We learned that the "darkness" in the heart of the Elohim are beings from "outside" the Land-universe.
So I would assume by the title that we're getting one last visitor from the outside maybe.
The Creator perhaps?
Or is the door between the 2 universes going to be forever closed?
I suspect it's something along those lines.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:We learned that the "darkness" in the heart of the Elohim are beings from "outside" the Land-universe.

Wait, where did I miss that?

Rigel wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:We learned that the "darkness" in the heart of the Elohim are beings from "outside" the Land-universe.

Wait, where did I miss that?

Infilece (sp? I'm horrible with spelling....) reveals it to Linden as they are all walking toward the Krill.

Ah, OK... I'm currently re-reading Runes, so it won't be long until I'm at that point again.

in [u]Fatal Revenant[/u] was wrote:"Then," Linden insisted, "what is it? What is the 'shadow'?"

Infelice sighed; but she did not decline to answer. Apparently her desire to sway Linden compelled her.

For a time which you would measure in eons, it remained nameless among us. Later, we considered that perhaps it was cast by the Despiser's malevolence.

But then we grew to understand that it was the threat of beings from beyond Time, beings such as yourself and also the Timewarden - beings both small and mortal who are nonetheless capable of utter devastation.

By his own deeds, the Despiser cannot destroy the Arch of Time. He requires the connivance of such men and women as the Timewarden's son and mate. He requires your aid, Wildwielder, and that of the man who was once the Unbeliever."

So if you believe wily, sneaky, underhanded, desperate, tricksy Infelice, then the "shadow" is Covenant and Linden themselves, and perhaps also Roger (and Joan?).

Based on the angle of the darkness over the heart of the Elohim being individuals like Linden and TC--those from outside Time--then I have a new idea.

What if the "last dark" refers to the last age of the Land when such beings enter this universe?

"The Last Dark" is the end of this particular creation, but not Creation in the sense of all realities, and not Creation in the sense of the ability to create.
Lord Foul is restored to his/its true place as a natural part of the Creator/Creation...not the engine of evil/destruction/despair he became in the Land. A kind of insanity forced upon him by his immortal and natural function being caged and suppressed in a creation that is mortal.
Covenant's real role was not to oppose Foul per se, but to heal the insanity. (There's a reason in a number of religions/mythologies creation/destruction are siblings, or the same Being in different guises)
Some weird logical (I think, improvising now) possibilities, (which I think apply whether the Land is "real" or not, with Covenant being a creator within Creation):
1) The Creator made a mistake...creating a perfect world(s)/universe(s) would require it to make something utterly beyond it's own existence, more immortal than an immortal among other things. Strangeness here...can one make something greater than that which one is or can comprehend? I think so, I think great writers (great lots of things) do so, the price being that the results are unknowable.
2) The Creator didn't make a mistake. It knew that mortality/endings were axiomatic for learning, and knew the price would be high, but worth it.
3) The Creator made a mistake, it thought it could make a perfect place and it did...it simply didn't realize that itself had despite and mortality within it: creation suddenly held up a mirror to a being that, until then, hadn't been able to see itself...and since then creation and creator have been paying the price of learning.
There are others I could think of (and probably lots y'all can that I didn't) Just a few thoughts. Got a little off-topic...but I started in the right place anyway.
J------------------

The last dark refers to the separateness of the characters from each other. In the end they will all combine with one another into one gestalt conciousness that would be a new better creator that would create a new world superior to the old one.

As we wait for the next book, we speculate on the what will happen. When it looks like we can agree that something will happen along a path, SRD comes up and hits us with a third possibility. We all nod our heads and think, "Yea, thats what I was really thinking".

wayfriend wrote:

in [u]Fatal Revenant[/u] was wrote:"Then," Linden insisted, "what is it? What is the 'shadow'?"

Infelice sighed; but she did not decline to answer. Apparently her desire to sway Linden compelled her.

For a time which you would measure in eons, it remained nameless among us. Later, we considered that perhaps it was cast by the Despiser's malevolence.

But then we grew to understand that it was the threat of beings from beyond Time, beings such as yourself and also the Timewarden - beings both small and mortal who are nonetheless capable of utter devastation.

By his own deeds, the Despiser cannot destroy the Arch of Time. He requires the connivance of such men and women as the Timewarden's son and mate. He requires your aid, Wildwielder, and that of the man who was once the Unbeliever."

So if you believe wily, sneaky, underhanded, desperate, tricksy Infelice, then the "shadow" is Covenant and Linden themselves, and perhaps also Roger (and Joan?).

Hmm, I haven't thought about it before, but what Infelice's words translate to in layman terms is that this darkness they got is possibility or fear of change. Not evil. The Despiser is evil but they don't care about that. Being static beings change is automatically perceived as bad in their eyes. They decided that only visitors from other worlds can cause such changes so they are the enemy in the Elohim's eyes. Or maybe she's just lying through her teeth like you say.

SBS, if you add in what Infelice said earlier, in the One Tree, I think it clicks into place.

"You believe it to be a thing of suzerain might. In sooth, your belief is just. But have you come so far across the Earth without comprehending the helplessness of Power? We are what we are-and what we are not, we can never become. He whom you name the Despiser is a being of another kind entirely. We are effectless against him."

The Elohim are effectless (in some way) against beings from "beyond time". Which makes sense, they were built to care for the Earth, and things from beyond the Earth are beyond their experience and their range. And these beings (Covenant, Linden, Joan, Roger) weild power enough to destroy the Earth. They are, in a way, living emblems of their ineffectiveness to protect the Earth. But they were built for that purpose, and are haughty to boot. So it makes them embarrassed and angry and feeling inadequate. Hence, a shadow on their heart.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:

wayfriend wrote:

in [u]Fatal Revenant[/u] was wrote:"Then," Linden insisted, "what is it? What is the 'shadow'?"

Infelice sighed; but she did not decline to answer. Apparently her desire to sway Linden compelled her.

For a time which you would measure in eons, it remained nameless among us. Later, we considered that perhaps it was cast by the Despiser's malevolence.

But then we grew to understand that it was the threat of beings from beyond Time, beings such as yourself and also the Timewarden - beings both small and mortal who are nonetheless capable of utter devastation.

By his own deeds, the Despiser cannot destroy the Arch of Time. He requires the connivance of such men and women as the Timewarden's son and mate. He requires your aid, Wildwielder, and that of the man who was once the Unbeliever."

So if you believe wily, sneaky, underhanded, desperate, tricksy Infelice, then the "shadow" is Covenant and Linden themselves, and perhaps also Roger (and Joan?).

Hmm, I haven't thought about it before, but what Infelice's words translate to in layman terms is that this darkness they got is possibility or fear of change. Not evil. The Despiser is evil but they don't care about that. Being static beings change is automatically perceived as bad in their eyes. They decided that only visitors from other worlds can cause such changes so they are the enemy in the Elohim's eyes. Or maybe she's just lying through her teeth like you say.

I agree with this take on the shadow. Rite now, Jeremiah is a huge threat to the Elohim. And he is also from beyond time, making him a shadow on their hearts. Since Jeremiah could obviously enact some serious change on the Elohim, he's the biggest shadow. You could also consider Jeremiah the last person outside time to enter the land. If the "Dark" in "The Last Dark" applies to the shadow, then its most likely Jeremiah. We know what his special talents are and what they want him to do, so maybe the last book focuses hugely on Jeremiah.

dmmike7 wrote:

shadowbinding shoe wrote:

wayfriend wrote: So if you believe wily, sneaky, underhanded, desperate, tricksy Infelice, then the "shadow" is Covenant and Linden themselves, and perhaps also Roger (and Joan?).

Hmm, I haven't thought about it before, but what Infelice's words translate to in layman terms is that this darkness they got is possibility or fear of change. Not evil. The Despiser is evil but they don't care about that. Being static beings change is automatically perceived as bad in their eyes. They decided that only visitors from other worlds can cause such changes so they are the enemy in the Elohim's eyes. Or maybe she's just lying through her teeth like you say.

I agree with this take on the shadow. Rite now, Jeremiah is a huge threat to the Elohim. And he is also from beyond time, making him a shadow on their hearts. Since Jeremiah could obviously enact some serious change on the Elohim, he's the biggest shadow. You could also consider Jeremiah the last person outside time to enter the land. If the "Dark" in "The Last Dark" applies to the shadow, then its most likely Jeremiah. We know what his special talents are and what they want him to do, so maybe the last book focuses hugely on Jeremiah.

Dear Watchers,

I am, maybe like many of you, having a great amount of difficulty in guessing what is coming next. This particular thread is giving me some problems, with respect to the issue of the Elohim. Within the confines of the Chronicles, I have learned not to trust them, which was a big disappointment from the First Chronicles to the Second. However, I think that it makes sense for the Elohim to resist Linden (and Covenant). They arose from the Earth and its creation as pure Earthpower. They represent, at least in a certain measure, the Earth's protection of itself. Within the 'being' of the Earth, they are its will. Although I can't explain it, the foreign-ness of Lord Foul is unapproachable to them as they are neither benevolent nor malevolent. They just are. Everything they do is about their own existence, and hence that of the Earth. That's why I also have a little trouble believing that any one of them would tell an outright lie. I just don't know if it is really in their character. Oh, they might explain things in a way that fools the hearer, but an outright falsehood?

With all this conisdered, I think the previous posters are onto something, with a little twist. I think that fear of the Elohim is as simple as fear of being extinguished. If they are changed any at all they will cease to be what they are. Lord Foul said that the Mastes serve him without knowing it. Cutting humans off from Earthpower is only a first step. Actually destroying it comes in at the end of the line.

The foreign-ness of beings from our world plays into this as well. But, I don't think that the Elohim see LA, TC, etc. as the enemy. If they did, why wouldn't they have prevented the translation of TC tot he Land? Some of his translations were expression of Earthpower. Or would they have seen that as futile, since LF would have just turned around and did it himself.

Also, would TC or LA participate in a new creation which would not have Earthpower as part of it?