Was saving the Giants possible?

[peter]

Your post DrPaul somewhat jumps the question of whether 'saving the Giants would have been possible' [and nothing wrong with that] and in essence I agree that irrespective of that having been achieved TC would always have been needed to put Foul's plans back a few millenia [because let's face it, thats all he ever did]. Mayhap an army strengthened by the presence of Giants and Bloodguard would also have slowed down Fouls rise to the point of challenging the 'Arch' - but again these are always things in the manner of 'putting off the inevitable. [In fact it is only tomorrow with the release of TLD that finally all the 'putting off' is over].

But I would like to go one step back from the threads question and ask 'Why did the Giants allow their own slaughter?' Was it purely that their own despair at the loss of the triplets to Foul and the Illearth Stone was of such magnitude, such depth that it robbed them of the capacity to act. If so then they truly were damned - beyond even the point of release by Covenants later 'camorra' I would have thought. This being so [and it pains me to say], they were subject to a funamental weakness, a flaw that would have always rendered them impotent in the face of an adversary like Foul and thus their presence or otherwise would be of no significance.

[Vraith]

I think it wasn't possible to save them [or for them to save themselves].

Because, in the triplets, they have found themselves in a story that no one could tell, and no one hear, with Joy.

It may well be a fatal weakness that would have made them impotent in facing LF.

An interesting thing is the similarity to the weakness that alters the Haruchai.

[ussusimiel]

The flaw of the Unhomed was their loss of Home. Without that they were no longer whole. Their numbers diminished and they began to need to strike blows against the Despiser (much like the Haruchai) to feel whole and we know the implication of that.

That the Giants could not feel whole without Home may point to a more general flaw within the Giants (the weakness of their strength) and that same flaw is present within the Haruchai (the Vow reft the Bloodguard of their home).

The only thing that could have saved the Unhomed was Home. Within the bounds of the 1st Chrons that wasn't likely to ever be possible, as the extremity of Foamfollower's passionate sacrifice needed something deeply intense to make it such a powerful and potent act. In many ways the death of the Unhomed makes most of the redemptive aspects and acts of the 1st and 2nd Chrons possible.

u.

[DrPaul]

Here is the exchange between Foamfollower and the Council of Lords in LFB:

Foamfollower paused to look thoughtfully at Covenant, then went on: "Ah, my Lords, omening is curious. So much is said-and so little made clear. It was not Home that Damelon foretold for us, but rather an end, a resolution, to our loss. Yet that sufficed for us-sufficed.

"Well. One hope we have found for ourselves. When spring came to Seareach, our questing ships returned, and told that at the very limit of their search they came upon an isle that borders the ancient oceans on which we once roamed. The matter is not sure, but our next questers can go directly to this isle and look beyond it for surer signs. Thus across the labyrinth of the seas we unamaze ourselves."

Prothall nodded, and through the perfect acoustics of the Close, Covenant could hear the faint rustle of the High Lord's robe.

With an air of nearing the crux of his embassy, Foamfollower continued, "Yet another hope we received from Damelon Giantfriend, High Lord and Heartthew's son. At the heart of his omening was this word: our exile would end when our seed regained its potency, and the decline of our offspring was reversed. Thus hope is born of hope, for without any foretelling we would gain heart and courage from any increase in our rare, beloved children. And behold! On the night that our ships returned, Wavenhair Haleall, wived to Sparlimb Keelsetter, was taken to her bed and delivered-ah, Stone and Sea, my Lords! It cripples my tongue to tell this without its full measure of long Giantish gratitude. How can there he joy for people who say everything briefly? Proud-wife, clean-limbed Wavenhair gave birth to three sons." No longer able to restrain himself, he broke into a chant full of the brave crash of breakers and the tang of salt.

To his surprise, Covenant saw that Lord Osondrea was smiling, and her eyes caught the golden glow of the graveling damply-eloquent witness to the gladness of the Giant's news.

But Foamfollower abruptly stopped himself. With a gesture toward Covenant, he said, "Your pardon you have other matters in your hands. I must bring myself to the bone of my embassy. Ah, my friend," he said to Covenant, "will you still not laugh for me? I must remember that Damelon promised us an end, not a return Home-though I cannot envision any end but Home. It may be that I stand in the gloaming of the Giants."

"Hush, Rockbrother," Lord Tamarantha interrupted. "Do not make evil for your people by uttering such things."

Foamfollower responded with a hearty laugh. "Ah, my thanks, Lord Tamarantha. So the wise old Giants are admonished by young women. My entire people will laugh when I tell them of this."

In short, there was an ambiguity in Damelon's prophecy that remained unresolved at the time of LFB. When the triplets were mastered by the Ravers with the Illearth Stone it was understandable that the Giants would conclude that the ambiguity had been resolved in the worst possible way. Given the centrality of the prophecy to their culture it is also understandable that they would have responded in the fatalistic way that they did. Of course it is conceivable that they could have framed the prophecy differently - as a warning of sorts, which they retained the freedom to make a meaningful choice in response to, rather than as ironclad destiny. However, in responding fatalistically, rather than remembering their capacity to make choices that mattered, they would not have been the only people of the Land and the Earth who misconceived their Weird/Wurd, with tragic consequences.

[peter]

Just wiped out my detailed and erudite post by going back to the previous page to check a point! [Peter tearing of his shirt and swelling with 'Incredible Hulk' style rage!]

[Rau Le Creuset]

Lord Hyrim was the best possible man in the entire land to save the giants.. the giants would have loved him.. he would have inspired them and vice versa.. it all came down to time I guess... and time is something they did not have

but if anyone could have done it, it would have been Hyrim.

[Cord Hurn]

Lord Hyrim was the best possible man in the entire land to save the giants.. the giants would have loved him.. he would have inspired them and vice versa.. it all came down to time I guess... and time is something they did not have

but if anyone could have done it, it would have been Hyrim.

I strongly agree!!! Hyrim had the capacity to find strength and mirth in adversity, and was the most Giant-like in personality of all the Lords, imo. He could have reminded them what they stood for, rallied them with the promise of the Gildenlode ships being nearly completed for their voyage to Home, and convinced them there was a way to separate the triplets from their pieces of the Illearth Stone to return them from possession of the Ravers. Hyrim could have done it, if he and the Bloodguard would have arrived just three days earlier. I will always feel certain of that. Which makes their delay in getting to Coercri all the more poignant and tragic.

[Borillar]

Just reading the snippet of LFB posted by DrPaul reminds me of just how much I missed this type of writing in The Last Chronicles (don't worry, no spoilers here; just talking about general writing style). So much conveyed in such a short number of sentences, and no hint of over-writing. And Foamfollower was fully realized at this point even though he had just been introduced shortly before. What a difference.

[balon!]

I'm wondering if Lord Hyrim and the bloodguard had managed to beat Kinslaughterer to Coercri, would they have had success convincing any of the Giants to resist or perhaps defeat the Giant-Raver before he could destroy his people?

I always felt like Kinslaughterer must have cast some sort of pall over coercri with the Illearth Stone shard before his assault on the giants. With the nearing completion of the Gildenlode pieces, and the birth of triplets, I always wondered why the city didnt just rise up and take the shard, or exorcise the Raver with a caamora or something. So the only thing that made sense was a sort of depression-cloud like the fear vortex from the battle with Troy.

This whole scenario is make-believe, but my imagination always fills in the thousands of details in novels that aren't covered. And this made a lot of sense for what Foamfollower demonstrated of giantish behaviour. I think the arrival of Lords like Hyrim and Shetra and a handfull of Bloodguard, the outcome could have been very different indeed.

[bikebryan]

I'm wondering if Lord Hyrim and the bloodguard had managed to beat Kinslaughterer to Coercri, would they have had success convincing any of the Giants to resist or perhaps defeat the Giant-Raver before he could destroy his people?

I always felt like Kinslaughterer must have cast some sort of pall over coercri with the Illearth Stone shard before his assault on the giants. With the nearing completion of the Gildenlode pieces, and the birth of triplets, I always wondered why the city didnt just rise up and take the shard, or exorcise the Raver with a caamora or something. So the only thing that made sense was a sort of depression-cloud like the fear vortex from the battle with Troy.

This whole scenario is make-believe, but my imagination always fills in the thousands of details in novels that aren't covered. And this made a lot of sense for what Foamfollower demonstrated of giantish behaviour. I think the arrival of Lords like Hyrim and Shetra and a handfull of Bloodguard, the outcome could have been very different indeed.

This was basically described by Foamfollower. When the Giants saw what had become of the three brothers, and how Foul could corrupt them and allow Ravers to possess them with just the smallest flick of his wrist, they decided to end it all. There was no need to cast a "pall" over Coecri. Just the knowledge of what had happened was all that it took. I believe the line Foamfollower used was something like "who could stand against a Giant-Raver" or something like that.

[SoulBiter]

I'm wondering if Lord Hyrim and the bloodguard had managed to beat Kinslaughterer to Coercri, would they have had success convincing any of the Giants to resist or perhaps defeat the Giant-Raver before he could destroy his people?

I always felt like Kinslaughterer must have cast some sort of pall over coercri with the Illearth Stone shard before his assault on the giants. With the nearing completion of the Gildenlode pieces, and the birth of triplets, I always wondered why the city didnt just rise up and take the shard, or exorcise the Raver with a caamora or something. So the only thing that made sense was a sort of depression-cloud like the fear vortex from the battle with Troy.

This whole scenario is make-believe, but my imagination always fills in the thousands of details in novels that aren't covered. And this made a lot of sense for what Foamfollower demonstrated of giantish behaviour. I think the arrival of Lords like Hyrim and Shetra and a handfull of Bloodguard, the outcome could have been very different indeed.

This was basically described by Foamfollower. When the Giants saw what had become of the three brothers, and how Foul could corrupt them and allow Ravers to possess them with just the smallest flick of his wrist, they decided to end it all. There was no need to cast a "pall" over Coecri. Just the knowledge of what had happened was all that it took. I believe the line Foamfollower used was something like "who could stand against a Giant-Raver" or something like that.

Exactly right.

So my people – the Giants - I also, in my own way – the Giants were filled with horror – with abhorrence so deep that it numbed the very marrow of their bones – when they saw their pride riven – torn from them like rotten sails in the wind. They foundered at the sight. They saw the portent of their hope of Home – the three brothers – changed from fidelity to the most potent ill by one small stroke of the Despiser’s evil. Who in the Land could hope to stand against a Giant-Raver? Thus the Unhomed became the means to destroy that to which they had held themselves true. And in horror at the naught of their fidelity, their folly practiced through long centuries of pride, they were transfixed. Their revulsion left no room in them for thought or resistance or choice. Rather than behold the cost of their failure – rather than risk the chance that more of them would be made Soulcrusher’s servants – they – they elected to be slain.

Realizing that any one of them could be turned into a Giant/Raver it made sense. So they killed one Giant/Raver. The Illearth stone would allow the Raver to just enter another Giant. Imagine realizing that even fighting back would do no good.

[wayfriend]

One thing that strikes me (if I can wander a bit, but then bring it back) is the line "Who in the Land could hope to stand against a Giant-Raver?"

The Giants recognized that Giant-Ravers were a greater danger than Stonedowner-Ravers or Ramen-Ravers or even Waynhim-Ravers. They, as a people, had it within them to be the most horrible of Raver-victims, as measured by how advantageous their possession was to the Ravers, and to Foul.

Just by being who they were, they threatened the Land that had given them a home when the hadn't Home.

Worse yet, the thing about them that made them the best Ravers for Foul was their stature. Their physical stature, yes, but also other capacities: endurance; constitution; and even their great hearts. Giant-Ravers are able to wield more forces than ordinary Ravers, and that comes from something in the Giant nature we can only call their capacity for passion. They wield such tremendous power because of the pure, powerful passions that Giants are masters of.

(What had warded them from Ravers until that time? They were too strong for Ravers. What was it that made them too strong? It is that of which I speak. That very thing that made them resistant to Ravers was the very thing that the Ravers wielded to make them so powerful.)

So it's not just who they were, but it was the very things that gave them their identity, that fell into Foul's hands.

You could not have a more existential crisis than the Giant's did, on that day.

No amount of warning or discussion, I think, could have prevented that day. There was no appeal that they would heed, because there was no logic nor rhetoric that could tell them that they weren't who they were, or that they might ever want to be other than they were.

Every weakness is a strength misapplied. Or, in Foul's hands, a strength turned against oneself.

[SoulBiter]

This supports what WF is saying. This came from "Tull's tale" in the Illearth War speaking to the last of the Giants left in Coercri.

Korik asked, "Why did you not fight?"

"We had become the thing we hate. We are better off dead."


"Nevertheless!" Korik said. "Is this the fealty of the Giants? Does all promised faithfulness come to this? By the Vow,Giant! You destroy yourselves and let the evil live! Even Kevin Landwaster was not so weak."
In his emotion, he forgot caution, and all the Bloodguard were taken unaware. The sudden voice behind them was cold with contempt; it cut through them like a gale of winter. Turning, they found that another Giant stood in the doorway. He was much younger than the Giant within, but he resembled the older Giant.

As you can see there would be no reasoning with the Giants.

[aTOMiC]

If it were a benefit to them in some way we now know the Elohim could have saved the Giants as they had at times in the past interfered with the conduct of people of the Land and had a relationship of sorts with the Giants themselves. I'm just pointing this out as an answer to "could the Giants be saved".

Of course the Elohim would have had to have a compelling reason to get off their butts and help out which wasn't the case at all. They were definitely keeping track of what happened during the events of the First Chrons. Gnarly powers were being wielded by Covenant and Lord Foul at the end of TPTP. I'm wondering if they had their fingers crossed or were poised to act if things had gone the wrong way.

[DrPaul]

I'm wondering if they had their fingers crossed or were poised to act if things had gone the wrong way.

Well, certainly by the time of the Second Chronicles, the Elohim would only have acted had events in the Land posed some kind of threat to themselves or their own purposes. Whether their self-absorption had proceeded to that extent by the time of the First Chronicles is a matter of conjecture.

[DrPaul]

Another question that is raised by this thread is whether the uses that Lord Foul made of the three Giant-Ravers in the First Chronicles were the most effective ones available to him, and to them. If it had been possible for the three Raver-possessed triplets to disguise any manifestations of their fragments of the Illearth Stone, one imagines that they could have attempted to claim oracular insights about the Giants' future in order to mislead them into actions (or inactions) that could have been even more useful to Lord Foul than what actually happened (just as moksha and turiya misled the Demondim, and samadhi misled the rulers/leaders of humans twice).

[aTOMiC]

Another question that is raised by this thread is whether the uses that Lord Foul made of the three Giant-Ravers in the First Chronicles were the most effective ones available to him, and to them. If it had been possible for the three Raver-possessed triplets to disguise any manifestations of their fragments of the Illearth Stone, one imagines that they could have attempted to claim oracular insights about the Giants' future in order to mislead them into actions (or inactions) that could have been even more useful to Lord Foul than what actually happened (just as moksha and turiya misled the Demondim, and samadhi misled the rulers/leaders of humans twice).

That's a pretty good point to bring up. I'm fine with how things were depicted as written but one of the more interesting traits of a Raver is the fact that it can hide within a person, generally undetected. If Lord Foul had chosen to do so the three Raver possessed Giant brothers could have indeed used subterfuge and deception to increase the emotional and physical damage inflicted upon the people of the Land in many different and diabolical ways.