Linden's Dead.. (A Discussion of the Dead in Andelain)

[ninjaboy]

Hey guys.. Just wondering about Linden and her dead.. In the 2nd Chrons, when TC was the only one (out of LA, Sunder & Hollian) to go into Andelain, the Forestal said it was good that Linden wasn't there as she would have raised'dire spectres' in Andelain...

Would we be meant to think this would imply that her Dead from our world (her parents) would have showed themselves in Andelain? I cannot think of anything else this would have ment, I would like youor opinions however..

Then in the final book of the 2nd Chrons the Forestal's pleased that Linden has come into Andelain.. I'm not too sure exactly what's behind the Forestal's change in attitude towards Linden's presence in Andelain.. Would her Dead from our world (if they are able to appear in Andelain) be less reluctant to show themselves at that point than previously in the series?

I am confused. Any info you guys have would be helpful.

[Cameraman Jenn]

I thought you meant something else entirely with the thread title!!!! Very good question and I admit I don't have an answer for you. Have to think about that for awhile.

[Warmark]

Unfortunately shes very much alive.

[Blackhawk]

I think that the first time Linden was near Andelain she had not delved into her black moods enough to have gotten rid of the bad energy her parents had formed in her or her inner demons if that sounds better, after Linden had either tried to kill Ceer coming out of her Elohim silence and releasing the Power her father and mother had over her ..and the possibility of dark shades showing up in Andelain to torment her more, possibly drive her mad before she understood how to protect herself. because she had killed her mother and watched her father die blaming her she would have been no better off than any of the stonedowners had she entered Andelain during the wounded land.

[Avatar]

I've always assumed it meant the spectres of her dead parents in the first book. In the last, she'd at least started to come to terms with what had happened.

As for the dead of our world appearing, perhaps we carry our dead with us...

--A

[sgt.null]

maybe the thread could be better titled?

[dlbpharmd]

I've always assumed it meant the spectres of her dead parents in the first book. In the last, she'd at least started to come to terms with what had happened.

As for the dead of our world appearing, perhaps we carry our dead with us...

--A

I've always thought it was her parents also, althought it's hard to imagine how that would've been possible with an intact Law of Life in place.

[lurch]

the apostrophe works fine, Yes, Linden's dead are as if the deep and dark scars left on her " being" by the actions of her parents: the inability to do anything about death. So, her existence has become an opposite reaction,, to prove her parents were wrong. Therefore she is still under the aegis of her parents...which brings us to the Last Chrons.

[IrrationalSanity]

she would have raised'dire spectres' in Andelain...

I think the actual phrase was "grim shades", but maybe it is a translation issue?

In any case, Keven was plenty grim at that point. I'm pretty sure he's the one she would have raised before, but she would have had even less ability to handle his "news".

On the other hand, I think what she did with that knowledge closely echos her actions in the most recent series,

Spoiler

except TC wasn't there to say "I thought you trusted me" before she went too far...

(Spolered just in case, but is that vague enough not to need a spoiler tag?)

[AjK]

My thoughts are pretty consistent with everyone else's answers.

Would we be meant to think this would imply that her Dead from our world (her parents) would have showed themselves in Andelain?

This is what I had always assumed. I took "grim" shades as referring to a reflection of the negative energy with which those people lived and died.

Would her Dead from our world (if they are able to appear in Andelain) be less reluctant to show themselves at that point than previously in the series?

Again, I agree with the spirit (pardon the expression) of the previous posters. If you see the Land as a manifestation of the person's internal condition, then as she develops and comes to terms more with her past and her parents then their appearance in Andelain may not be as bad.

I am confused.

Then you are infringing on patent rights that I own...

[ninjaboy]

Well how is it that the Dead in Andelain, you know.. 'appear'. Are they invoked soley by the presence of a living individual? Obviously they wouldn't show up if there wasn't anyone to greet them.. But it seems there's more to it than that.

I believe that the Dead themselves decide whether to show up - I believe they can be deliberately summonned, but if they aren't directly summonned it's up to them whether they appear, yes? For example, Covenant's dead only show up once turing his 3 treks in Andelain during the 2nd Chrons.. Only Sunder and Hollian appeared in Andelain at the end of the 2nd Chrons - TC's other dead didn't appear, or anyone who had perished previously in the quest for the One Tree..

So surely they can decide whether to appear or not.. So.. Why would Linden's paren't have decided to appear the first time she had the chance to be in Andelain but decide against it when she actually was there?

Blackhawk suggested that Linden's overcoming of her internal struggle against her past determined whether her Dead appeared.. Which makes sense, but then that would imply the Dead can only appear when the person they're appearing to is.. Somehow mentally unstable? Still dealing with lots of issues?? I don't buy that.

Was TC Mentally unstable the first time he Dealt with his Dead? I wouldn't say he was.. They were there because they had gifts for him, but I doubt he was mentally 'weak' or 'unsound' at that point. And there are examples in other Chrons where the Dead appear to people of sound mind.

[Reisheiruhime]

yay for ninjas...

ok, um, couldn't it be possible that certain dead are stronger than other dead and that's what gives them the ability to appear? Linden's parents both seem like rather weak individuals. Sunder and Hollian were strong... Mhoram, Elena, Bannor, Foamy, Hile Troy, any other lords, any people like that... strong. Trell, Atiaran, Lena... all fairly strong people in life, utelizing earthpower in some way whether actively or passively.... Linden's parents have never had access to EP, and they're weak... so i doubt Andelain would summon them up (what if Andelain reads the person and summons their dead based on their reading?)...

Her Land dead might include Ceer and perhaps Hergrom, and I wouldn't doubt Cail unless the merewives absorbed his soul as well as his life, and maybe the First and Pitchy and Mistweave and Seadreamer and Honninscrave even, but....

Ever noticed how the evil dead don't end up in Andelain? Bad guys don't go there. It's like the pagan concept of summerland... if you've done enough good you get to relax for a little while before you come on back... But (with the exception of Kevin, who only did the RoD to save the Land from LF, so technically he was trying to do a good thing) what baddies have u seen in Andelain?

just some thoughts...

[SGuilfoyle1966]

I think we have to be careful with how we read the book.
We hadn't really learned about Linden's parents when we first read the book, and Hile Troy says, she would raise grim shades here.
We learn that her father killed himself and she killed her mother in the One Tree.
Who didn't read Wounded Land again, after One Tree, BEFORE White Gold Wielder.
And what did we do? We made an assumption SRD was writing about her shades from the real world.
It was just the writer playing with his reader's preconceptions and a five to six year publishing cycle.

[rdhopeca]

She DID raise a grim shade....High Lord Kevin....

[wayfriend]

rdhopeca got there just before I did.

Didn't Donaldson recently say something in the GI about how the Dead that appear in Andelain somewhat reflect the person that they appear to?

And the woman of your world would raise grim shades here. Not her parents. But people of the Land who suffer as Linden is suffering, who are confused as Linden is confused. Like Kevin. And those that she summoned would be skewed towards those that suffering and confusion. Those qualities that make them "grim" would be enhanced, while their life-avowing qualities would be subdued.

They would be people who would be so like her parents as to effectively be the same thing.

When Covenant was crucifying himself for letting the Riders steal his friends, and he went down the road of self-punishment, who appeared but those Dead who had the most reason to punish him. Lena, Atiaran, Trell. In a way, a reflection of Covenant's state. Grim.

[dlbpharmd]

Excellent point, WF.

[Blackhawk]

Blackhawk suggested that Linden's overcoming of her internal struggle against her past determined whether her Dead appeared.. Which makes sense, but then that would imply the Dead can only appear when the person they're appearing to is.. Somehow mentally unstable? Still dealing with lots of issues?? I don't buy that.

Was TC Mentally unstable the first time he Dealt with his Dead? I wouldn't say he was.. They were there because they had gifts for him, but I doubt he was mentally 'weak' or 'unsound' at that point. And there are examples in other Chrons where the Dead appear to people of sound mind.

not at all... I believe everyones dead show up..but if you have done them wrong your going to suffer more from the experience.

another question..if linden didnt overcome her parents then why didnt they show up for her when she entered andelain? she did raise grim shades however...Kevin.

[ninjaboy]

I did kinda mess up there..

Completely forgot about Kevin showing up to Linden and then Linden abusing all Covenant's dead..

What I'd love to know is what TC and his Dead were discussing before Linden made them dissapear. But I don't suppose we'll ever know. But why did they appear at all? They didn't seem to give him any more wisdom.. I should say from the way SD wrote it we weren't told that TC's dead were giving him any sort of assistance for his future missions, but we still have 2 books to go.

In fact from that encounter in the 2nd Chrons one should be able to assume that if the Dead choose (especially High Lords) they could appear to anyone. There is no familiarity or bond between HL Kevin and Linden, he chose to appear to her because he knew she was the only one who could interfere with TC's intent.

In answer to Blackhawk's question - perhaps it just isn't possible for the Dead of our world to appear in Andelain. We don't know. We can only think, maybe it is, maybe it isn't.. Indeed perhaps only the spirits of certain people (heroes of the Land) can show up there..

The question was asked whether any bad spirits can show up in Andelain.. I honestly can't think of a bad person who has died in the Land except Drool Rockworm and maybe Kasreyn..

[Blackhawk]

In answer to Blackhawk's question - perhaps it just isn't possible for the Dead of our world to appear in Andelain. We don't know. We can only think, maybe it is, maybe it isn't.. Indeed perhaps only the spirits of certain people (heroes of the Land) can show up there..

The question was asked whether any bad spirits can show up in Andelain.. I honestly can't think of a bad person who has died in the Land except Drool Rockworm and maybe Kasreyn..

yeah...its hard to say if there is true evil outside Foul and the Ravers, The Waynhim and Urviles must be outside that law or not bound by it since they are not Alive in the same way Creatures who die of natural causes are. everyone ...even Kevin Landwaster & Elena."Foul Wife" was let into andelain as a spirit and you cant do much worse than breaking the law of death or desecrating the land, Foul at his worst didnt cause damage in that scale. so it seems once the life ends so does the evil holding it. besides the ravers that is.

[Rocksister]

[quote="ninjaboy"]
What I'd love to know is what TC and his Dead were discussing before Linden made them dissapear. But I don't suppose we'll ever know. quote]

Never say never, ninjaboy. There have been several moments where SRD blindsided me with something. I have no doubt he will do it many more times in the next two books. I, too, wondered what conversation had already occurred, and whether Linden's sudden appearance and vehement verbal attacks prevented TC from gaining some very desirable knowledge or instructions that his Dead had planned to give him. More fuel for THOOLAH? I hope we find out......