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The Worm and Lord Foul
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:58 pm
by Borillar
Okay, ever since reading TOT and WGW I've had some trouble with the issue of the awakening of the Worm. In WGW, Linden asks Findail why Foul doesn't just wake up the Worm himself, since that would achieve his goal of the destruction of the Earth. Findail replies that if Foul were to do so without the white gold in hand, he would be destroyed as well. This seems to imply that Foul would be destroyed if he were immediately proximate to the Worm without wild magic, i.e., that the Worm's "thrashings" would destroy him if he was close by in a way that the destruction of the Earth would not. This seems ... well, implausible. It seems even more implausible when you think that Foul could have sent a Raver to battle the Guardian, rather than doing it himself. I'm not saying that the Raver would have been successful at beating the Guardian, but the combat itself is what Findail claims made the Worm "restive", not Seadreamer's attempt to grab the branch.
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:06 pm
by High Lord Tolkien
Hopefully Wayfriend will post a link to the thread where he made a masterful post on this very topic.
At first I thought that the Worm was a creature on immense power of all that is in the world but still contained within the Arch.
So if it woke all would be destroyed, perhaps Foul would exist in some way, but he'd be trapped forever with no hope of being free unless he had the WG to break the arch.
But now I have no idea.
I do find it interesting that common theme of "waking up" in both Chronicles.
Clearly someone is dreaming, the question is who? (or is it whom?)
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:09 pm
by wayfriend
There are a lot of good threads about questions about the Worm. Mine is
here. And not just because I'm a shameless self-promotionist - there's actually some good discussion there, early in (the second reply), directly related to Borillar's question.
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:23 pm
by Blackhawk
I was thinking that the Worm was the creators Eraser...cleaning the slate until the creator was ready to make a new Gallery, sort of an Unruly but extremely efficient tool which the creator never spoke of in the few lines given in these books.(the GI probably says otherwise) that could explain the co-existence of two creation stories, and the conflicting beliefs to the people on the earth. the worm could have been the foundation of the land when it was in stasis and the creator was working to make it an artwork and eventually a prison sealed with white gold as the keystone, until the creator was ready to clean the slate again. had foul not been in possesion of white gold when the worm was awakened it would be like the raver being contained by Honninscrave while the Sandgorgon Rended its existence. Foul may have survived but in such a weakened state the creator would possibly be able to snuff his remaining existence with no effort at all.
I liked Wayfriends explanations also... alot more to think about.
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:53 am
by deer of the dawn
The Worm always reminded me of the ancient idea that a serpentlike creature who caused continual chaos had to be defeated (or perhaps harnessed) before Creation could take place.
These are gleaned from a couple websites (too tired to type it all out myself):
Leviathan, in the Bible, one of the names of the primeval dragon subdued by Yahweh at the outset of creation: “You crushed Leviathan’s heads, gave him as food to the wild animals” (Psalm 74:14; see also Isaiah 27:1; Job 3:8; Amos 9:3). Biblical writers also refer to the dragon as Rahab (Job 9:13; Psalm 89:10) or simply as the Abyss (Habakkuk 3:10).
The biblical references to the battle between Yahweh and Leviathan reflect the Syro-Palestinian version of a myth found throughout the ancient Near East. In this myth, creation is represented as the victory of the creator-god over a monster of chaos.
The closest parallel to the biblical versions of the story appears in the Canaanite texts from Ra’s Shamrah (14th century BC), in which Baal defeats a dragonlike monster: “You will crush Leviathan the fleeing serpent; you will consume the twisting serpent, the mighty one with seven heads.” (The wording of Isaiah 27:1 draws directly on this text.)
A more ancient version of the myth occurs in the Babylonian Creation Epic, in which the storm god Marduk defeats the sea monster Tiamat and creates the earth and sky by cleaving her corpse in two. The latter motif is reflected in a few biblical passages that extol Yahweh’s military valor: “Was it not you who split Rahab in half, who pierced the dragon through?” (Isaiah 51:9; see also Job 26:12; Psalm 74:13, 89:10).
And here is a West African story:
In the beginning, the world was created by Nana-Buluku, the one god, who was genderless. Nana-Buluku made itself a companion named Aido-Hwedo, who was a rainbow serpent. The dung from this serpent or dragon created the mountains, and nourished the earth so that plants could grow. The writhings of the dragon created rivers and valleys.
When the world was complete, it was so overladen with plants, animals and mountains that they feared the world might collapse. Aido-Hwedo offered to help by forming a great circular loop, with its tail in its mouth, and enfolding the world (see Ouroboros).
Because Aido-Hwedo could not tolerate heat, Nana-Buluku created a great cosmic ocean for him to live in, and there he has stayed. He was fed iron bars by red monkeys that lived beneath the sea. If and when the monkey's iron supply runs out, Aido-Hwedo will be so hungry that he will eat his own tail. Then,
"...his writhings will be so terrible that the whole earth will tilt, and then slip into the sea, and that will be that!"
Part of the coolness of SRD's Worm of the World's End construct is its ancientness.
Re: The Worm and Lord Foul
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:18 pm
by Caesar
Borillar wrote:... Findail replies that if Foul were to do so without the white gold in hand, he would be destroyed as well. This seems to imply that Foul would be destroyed if he were immediately proximate to the Worm without wild magic, i.e., that the Worm's "thrashings" would destroy him if he was close by in a way that the destruction of the Earth would not. ...
This always seemed to me to indicate that Foul would "die" if the Worm woke up (assuming that the waking of the Word would destroy the Earth). Since Foul would not have had the wild magic at his disposal, he would still be trapped in the Arch of Time and when Time "ended", so would Foul.
I'm not sure this has anything to do with proximity to the Worm (though I could certainly be wrong
).
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:35 pm
by wayfriend
The problem is, Findail also said, "Here the Despiser cannot fail! If the Worm is roused, the Earth will end, freeing Despite to wreak its vengeance upon the cosmos. And if the ring-wielder attempts to match his might against the Worm, he will destroy the Arch of Time. It cannot contain such a battle! It is founded upon white gold, and white gold will rive it to rubble! For this was he afflicted with the Despiser's venom! To enhance his might, enabling him to rend the Arch!"
Which strongly implies that rousing the Worm or destroying the Arch would free Foul, despite Covenant having the ring.
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:48 pm
by High Lord Tolkien
wayfriend wrote:The problem is, Findail also said, "Here the Despiser cannot fail! If the Worm is roused, the Earth will end, freeing Despite to wreak its vengeance upon the cosmos. And if the ring-wielder attempts to match his might against the Worm, he will destroy the Arch of Time. It cannot contain such a battle! It is founded upon white gold, and white gold will rive it to rubble! For this was he afflicted with the Despiser's venom! To enhance his might, enabling him to rend the Arch!"
Which strongly implies that rousing the Worm or destroying the Arch would free Foul, despite Covenant having the ring.
Has anyone asked about this in the GI?
This seems to be a huge contradiction, mistake or the key to the entire Chronicles.
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:12 pm
by Blackhawk
So would the worm Waking break the arch of time if the ringwielder did not use white gold to oppose it? I figure the arch of time is bigger than the planet & Land that Lord Foul is trapped? if Lord Foul is trapped in the arch of time and the World ended without breaking the arch he would be without a place to wield his Evil.
Unless he found another planet under that Arch...hmmm.... could the final dark be the beginning of a new Planet for Foul to terrorize?
Nahhhhh.....
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:32 pm
by wayfriend
Personally I don't believe that there's such a thing as the Earth being destroyed but the Arch surviving. The Arch exists for one purpose, and that's to house the Earth.
The Earth can be warped by Foul beyond all imagining, turned into a living hell. But not destroyed, so long as the Arch goes on.
Another way of looking at it is: the Arch's job is to preserve the Earth, and the Earth can't be destroyed as long as the Arch is doing it's job.