Income inequality

[Zarathustra]

Success is a choice!

To be fair, I think the choice is a liiiitlle more different for some people than for others.

Just because people are faced with different choices doesn't mean that success isn't a choice.

Let's be clear: Harb didn't mean that success is as easy as simply choosing it. You don't choose success. You choose actions which lead to success, or lead to failure. It's not magic, you still have to do it yourself. But doing it is as simple as choosing it, and then following up on that choice.

I've talked about it before, but there are jobs right now that you can get and start making $90,000/yr, with no college education, three days of training, a car, and about $200 dollars of investment in equipment. Of course, you'd have to travel out of state. But the point is that it's that easy. A simple choice, and you're making serious bucks in less than a week. The job is project manager for roofing company--one I've done several times before. I'm not willing to leave my family very often, so I don't make anything close to that kind of money right now. But it's possible. I know a guy who needs employees right now.

[Avatar]

The opportunities have to be there for people to be able to choose to take them though. And even their existence doesn't mean anybody can take them...what if you can't afford a car for example?

(I'm not saying it's not possible, because it can be. I'm just saying that it's not always as easy as that.)

--A

[aTOMiC]

Now make that the daughter of a poverty-stricken, single-parent janitor in Ethiopia and the "choices" become something else again...

--A

I can't argue with that at all. I wish the entire planet offered the same kind of opportunity that America offers to it's citizens. But with cultural philosophy, geography, politics and natural resources being quite different in other parts of the world I can see why "American Success" isn't universal.

I think we get ourselves in enough trouble trying to export our ideas and values to the world. Many other cultures look at our involvement as interference, not help. In many cases all we can do is watch in horror at the insufferable poverty. We send millions of dollars in aid and private charity to impoverished countries but most of that good will never reaches the people who need it. It's heartbreaking and ultimately frustrating.

[Plissken]

I'm in agreement that you make your choices in life. But there are also things you can't choose - my life has had itself re-set 3 times by external forces, and the Safety Net (I've used it twice) isn't even at subsistence levels. (Seriously. Lost my car and apartment while on WC. Without family, I'd have been on the off-ramp, holding a sign. Well, probably not holding it, so much as propping it up. No skin on my hands, you know how it is.)

Right now, I'm positioned (through luck, as well as my own effort) to greatly expand my earning ability - if the entire effin' economy doesn't tank completely between now and this summer.

[Zarathustra]

Pliss, life can be hard, and the choices can be hard. My life isn't where I want it to be right now, either. I've been extremely poor in the past, too. I've given my blood (well, plasma) to have money to eat.

But there are millionaires who have lost it all and then rebuilt their empires, too. It's possible. And it is more probable than any other time or place in history.

Sure, there are things you can't choose. And luck is a factor. But the biggest single factor is you.

[Plissken]

Pliss, life can be hard, and the choices can be hard. My life isn't where I want it to be right now, either. I've been extremely poor in the past, too. I've given my blood (well, plasma) to have money to eat.

But there are millionaires who have lost it all and then rebuilt their empires, too. It's possible. And it is more probable than any other time or place in history.

Sure, there are things you can't choose. And luck is a factor. But the biggest single factor is you.

Not to pick nits, but technically, 1935 was the best year to be born, if you wanted to be a self-made millionaire.

Just kidding.

I'm in complete agreement with everything you've said in this post, Mal. I just don't come to same conclusions.

[Avatar]

Good posts. Agree with Pliss though. And even more so when, as I mentioned earlier, we look at the applicability of those possibilities in other places, and on a more global level. Where income inequality is even more pronounced.

--A

[Prebe]

But doing it is as simple as choosing it, and then following up on that choice.

The illusive "it" varies a tremendous lot from one person to the other. The only realistic "it" for a 13 year old thai girl from Bangkok could be taking up prostitution for example.

I feel that by applying "the success is as simple as choosing it" bumper sticker (which incidentally abbreviates to b.s.) will invariably lead you to compare others by their success or rather the lack of it, even if the choices individuals would have to make to succeed were vastly different.

And that is EXACTLY what the above mantra is used for: labeling people useless and lazy because they have not succeeded, no matter what their initial conditions were. I find that repulsive. But that's my commie ass speaking, I know.

[Lord Mhoram]

Prebe,

Make that two asses. The spectrum of choices we can make can be severely limited.

[Avatar]

My feelings too. And limited by factors outside of your control too.

--A

[Rawedge Rim]

The opportunities have to be there for people to be able to choose to take them though. And even their existence doesn't mean anybody can take them...what if you can't afford a car for example?

(I'm not saying it's not possible, because it can be. I'm just saying that it's not always as easy as that.)

--A

In a world populated by 5 or so billion people, there are always going to those who are, by the standard, "poverty stricken".

In the US, the word poverty gets thrown around a lot, and includes people who own cars, have TV sets, wear $100 athletic shoes, and weight 350 LBS.

I know that there are people who are actually poverty stricken within the USA, but as things improve, those who want to stick thier hand in my pocket raise the "poverty stricken" bar a bit higher every year.

I've been to countries where there is "real poverty, where folks actually starve to death, and the only clothes they own are the rags they are wearing.

Having made those statements, for people within the vast majority of the industrialized world, and are relatively healthy (two arms, two legs, a working brain) there are choices that one can make, from about age 13, and up, that at least will maximize thier ability to be successful, and possible become "rich". Taking education seriously, avoiding drugs, not engaging in behaviors that will put thier success in jeapardy (crime, unprotected sex, drugs, alchohol, gambling, etc.). Certainly those that maximize thier oportunities to be sucessful tend to be successful, vrs. those who spend thier younger years partying it up, skipping classes, and generally looking down on education and proper behavior.

Now as to the "what if they can't afford a car", then find a job that pays something with in walking distance, eat rice and beans and Ramen noodles, until such a time as they can afford a vehicle, and then look for a better job, and so on and so forth.

[Avatar]

Good post. See, I was talking about those places where there is real poverty. I live in one of them. One of them with huge income inequality, because I sit here typing to you, while within a few km of me, hundreds, maybe thousands, of families lie 6 to a room in shacks with no water or electricity, and probably not much dinner.

And that's why I'm saying that the choices are not always there. There are people are eating rice and beans, not because they're saving for a car, but because that's all their income will allow. With no savings.

There's no way they could get that job (if it was available here in the first place), and it's not because they're not willing to work.

(In other words, I was applying that car example to places other than the US.)

(Maybe you guys are looking at this more specifically than I am...like I said, I'm thinking more globally.)

--A

[Farsailer]

Good post. See, I was talking about those places where there is real poverty. I live in one of them. One of them with huge income inequality, because I sit here typing to you, while within a few km of me, hundreds, maybe thousands, of families lie 6 to a room in shacks with no water or electricity, and probably not much dinner.

And that's why I'm saying that the choices are not always there. There are people are eating rice and beans, not because they're saving for a car, but because that's all their income will allow. With no savings.

There's no way they could get that job (if it was available here in the first place), and it's not because they're not willing to work.

(In other words, I was applying that car example to places other than the US.)

(Maybe you guys are looking at this more specifically than I am...like I said, I'm thinking more globally.)

--A

This is why I really dislike it when people talk about poverty in the US with that whining tone about "how bad they've got it". In the US, it is still possible to get free public education through high school for even the poorest children if their guardians make it a priority and if the kids can make something of themselves in that environment, they can get scholarships to higher education. I've seen real poverty and there's nothing like it here in the US. Take a stroll through the poor areas in Africa, southeast Asia, etc., someday if you can, and you will see what I mean.

[Rawedge Rim]

Good post. See, I was talking about those places where there is real poverty. I live in one of them. One of them with huge income inequality, because I sit here typing to you, while within a few km of me, hundreds, maybe thousands, of families lie 6 to a room in shacks with no water or electricity, and probably not much dinner.

And that's why I'm saying that the choices are not always there. There are people are eating rice and beans, not because they're saving for a car, but because that's all their income will allow. With no savings.

There's no way they could get that job (if it was available here in the first place), and it's not because they're not willing to work.

(In other words, I was applying that car example to places other than the US.)

(Maybe you guys are looking at this more specifically than I am...like I said, I'm thinking more globally.)

--A

This is why I really dislike it when people talk about poverty in the US with that whining tone about "how bad they've got it". In the US, it is still possible to get free public education through high school for even the poorest children if their guardians make it a priority and if the kids can make something of themselves in that environment, they can get scholarships to higher education. I've seen real poverty and there's nothing like it here in the US. Take a stroll through the poor areas in Africa, southeast Asia, etc., someday if you can, and you will see what I mean.

Exactly...


I love the old joke where the "foriegner" speaks up and say's "I love America, becuase in America, even the poor people are fat."

[wayfriend]

How US Poverty Levels are measured.

NEW YORK, May 5, 2008 (UPI) -- The formula for calculating the U.S. poverty level needs updating, the leader of a national children's advocacy group said Monday.

Nancy Cauthen, deputy director of Columbia University's National Center for Children in Poverty, said a family of four requires twice the federal poverty level of $21,200 to meet basic needs, The Biloxi, Miss., Sun Herald reported.

The formula, devised in the 1960s, is based on a family spending one-third of its income on food.

The 1968 poverty level for a family of four was $3,553, based on what the family would require for food costs multiplied by three, the report said.

Increased costs of childcare, healthcare and transportation have changed the ratio in the past 40 years with food now representing one-seventh of an average family's expenses, the report said.

[Harbinger]

Make opportunities. I bought a $5 box lunch today. Everything in it was made from scratch. Smoked pork sandwich (off the hook) on homemade bread, homemade potato chips, huge brownie, homemade bbq sauce. Oh, there was a mint in there, I guess he bought that. There are several sandwiches to choose from and it was delivered to my office. The guy said he sold about 400 box lunches a week. Gets up at 4 am to get his orders ready for the day.

So there you go. Can you make a sandwich? Well, then you can make money. This guy grosses more than $100,000 a year- five bucks at a time.

Problem for most people is that they want someone to do it for them.

[Farsailer]

How US Poverty Levels are measured.

NEW YORK, May 5, 2008 (UPI) -- The formula for calculating the U.S. poverty level needs updating, the leader of a national children's advocacy group said Monday.

Nancy Cauthen, deputy director of Columbia University's National Center for Children in Poverty, said a family of four requires twice the federal poverty level of $21,200 to meet basic needs, The Biloxi, Miss., Sun Herald reported.

The formula, devised in the 1960s, is based on a family spending one-third of its income on food.

The 1968 poverty level for a family of four was $3,553, based on what the family would require for food costs multiplied by three, the report said.

Increased costs of childcare, healthcare and transportation have changed the ratio in the past 40 years with food now representing one-seventh of an average family's expenses, the report said.

$21,200 is one $10/hour job for 40 hours/week. That is $80/day. The only taxes this person will owe is about $6/day for FICA, but he might get it back via EITC. By contrast, there are some 200 to 300 million Chinese who live on less than $2/day. Big difference.

[Zarathustra]

Prebe,

Make that two asses. The spectrum of choices we can make can be severely limited.

And it's exactly that kind of thinking that limits your choices. Self-fulfilling prophesy. I guess a black man will never be president in this country too . . . oh, wait a minute. There IS "Hope(TM)."


Why are Obama supporters so pessimistic? Is there no Hope(TM) without government handouts? Is that it?

The illusive "it" varies a tremendous lot from one person to the other. The only realistic "it" for a 13 year old thai girl from Bangkok could be taking up prostitution for example.

I feel that by applying "the success is as simple as choosing it" bumper sticker (which incidentally abbreviates to b.s.) will invariably lead you to compare others by their success or rather the lack of it, even if the choices individuals would have to make to succeed were vastly different.

And that is EXACTLY what the above mantra is used for: labeling people useless and lazy because they have not succeeded, no matter what their initial conditions were. I find that repulsive. But that's my commie ass speaking, I know.

I refer you to Harbinger's excellent point:

Can you make a sandwich? Well, then you can make money.

I assume people eat in Bangkok, don't they? Prostitution is a choice, too. If anyone truly chooses this trade (rather than forced into it), then they do so because they see opportunity in it. I'm not saying it's a good choice. But it is her choice, and she chooses it because of the money.

Of course there are greater opportunities in some places. Success is relative. If you're going to set the bar at "millionaire," then 13-yr-old Thai girls probably aren't going to make it. Do you have a better solution for them besides free market capitalism? Should we start a 13-yr-old Thai girl tax on the rich?

[wayfriend]

I refer you to Harbinger's excellent point:

Can you make a sandwich? Well, then you can make money.

Harbingers excellent point seems to point out that Harbinger may not precisely be aware of what the start-up costs and overhead of a food service are.

[wayfriend]

$21,200 is one $10/hour job for 40 hours/week. That is $80/day. The only taxes this person will owe is about $6/day for FICA, but he might get it back via EITC. By contrast, there are some 200 to 300 million Chinese who live on less than $2/day. Big difference.

I totally agree there is a big difference between real poverty and the US poverty level. I was just trying to fill in some facts which can explain precisely why that is.

But then again, comparing having a dollar in the US and having a dollar in China is an apples and oranges comparison, to be fair. You have to take into account the cost of living. And then there's standards of living. In the US, we don't consider a town hand-pump and a ditch for squatting over "adequate facilities", for example.