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The One Forest and the creation of the Forestals/Colossus
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:32 pm
by High Lord Tolkien
The One Forest and the creation of the Forestals.
Let me see if I've got this right, correct me if I'm wrong:
The One Forest.
Lets go back in time.
Before mankind came North humans were spreading out and settling in the south beyond the Land.
The One Forest encompased all the Land with Andelain in the middle.
The Ranyhyn were enjoying the Plains of Ra and the Viles were a majestic race living if palaces beneath Mt Thunder wise enough to avoid evil banes buried in there.
Cavewrights were equally at peace and cool to hang out with.
At what point does the Elohim come and become the Colossus and create the Forestals?
Mankind was responsible for the destruction of the One Forest.
And the Forestals were created to fight them.
In FR we read that the Forestals weren't created until only the various separate forests were left.
Here's the contradiction that I found.
The whole point of the Colossus was to keep the Ravers from the Upper Land.
The Ravers didn't circumvent it and start to influence Berk's people until after the Colossus was formed.
So...what did the Ravers do to earn the enmity of the Forest?
Or do you think that they were running rampant throughout the Land before the Colossus was formed?
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:15 pm
by dlbpharmd
First, one small correction: The Ranyhyn were not in the Land during this ancient time; they came to the Land sometime after Berek became High Lord.
Next, I think it's clear that the Forest was aware of the Ravers and their manipulation of mankind to further the destruction of the Forest, and this was the source of their enmity and the reason for binding the Elohim into the Colossus.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:44 pm
by High Lord Tolkien
dlbpharmd wrote:First, one small correction: The Ranyhyn were not in the Land during this ancient time; they came to the Land sometime after Berek became High Lord.
I'm not arguing but where does it say that?
dlbpharmd wrote:Next, I think it's clear that the Forest was aware of the Ravers and their manipulation of mankind to further the destruction of the Forest, and this was the source of their enmity and the reason for binding the Elohim into the Colossus.
I wouldn't say "clear".
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:47 pm
by dlbpharmd
High Lord Tolkien wrote:dlbpharmd wrote:First, one small correction: The Ranyhyn were not in the Land during this ancient time; they came to the Land sometime after Berek became High Lord.
I'm not arguing but where does it say that?
In FR, can't remember the chapter name but it's before Linden meets Berek, she says that she's going to call the Ranyhyn, and Roger tells her that they're not in the Land in that time period. After Kelenbrabanal's (sp?) death, they fled the Land, found the Ramen, and then came back hundreds of years later, sometime between Berek and Kevin.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:55 pm
by High Lord Tolkien
dlbpharmd wrote:High Lord Tolkien wrote:dlbpharmd wrote:First, one small correction: The Ranyhyn were not in the Land during this ancient time; they came to the Land sometime after Berek became High Lord.
I'm not arguing but where does it say that?
In FR, can't remember the chapter name but it's before Linden meets Berek, she says that she's going to call the Ranyhyn, and Roger tells her that they're not in the Land in that time period. After Kelenbrabanal's (sp?) death, they fled the Land, found the Ramen, and then came back hundreds of years later, sometime between Berek and Kevin.
But that fits with the original idyllic Land that I presented at the beginning.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:58 pm
by dlbpharmd
this is Wayfriend's post in the "Nature of Ravers" thread. I believe this to be very accurate.
So our new timeline is as follows.
1. Glory Days of the One Forest
2. Arrival of humans. The diminishment of the One Forest begins in the Lower Land.
3. Malevolence infects humans. Diminishment intensifies.
4. Ravers appear. The Lower Land is cleared completely, and diminishment begins in the Upper Land.
5. An Elohim came.
6. The Colossus was formed. The Ravers were repelled from the Upper Land.
7. Foul builds Ridjeck Thome and assembles his Ravers.
8. Raverless, humans still destroy the One Forest. The Colossus begins to wane.
9. The Ravers pervert both the Viles and Berek's King.
10. Berek's King is defeated. Berek becomes High Lord.
11. Damelon becomes High Lord after Berek.
12. The Interdict fails, although the Colossus remains.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:31 pm
by wayfriend
It's confusing because there are two sets of people involved. First there were the people who came to the Land (from Berek's land, but not now -in- Berek's land) and cut down the trees. These created the Ravers, which led to the Colossus. The Ravers then circumvented the Colossus to poison the people of Berek's Land (in Berek's land) and cause the War.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:06 pm
by High Lord Tolkien
First of all I hate the fact that Wayfriend always beats me by first making superior posts like this!!
And second, this is the first I've heard mention of any of the One Forest being in the Lower land.
It makes sense though.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:18 pm
by dlbpharmd
As you'll recall, Giant Woods was in the Lower Land.
Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:15 pm
by wayfriend
... but they were in the northern lower Land, and were completely isolated from the southern lower Land, due to Sarangrave/Lifeswallower. I don't think the Giant Woods were ever hacked up by pioneers from the south. Which is why they remain. So when Donaldson says, "much of the Lower Land had been slain of trees", I think he is excluding Giant Woods, and speaking only of the southern Lower Land -- where indeed no forest remains.
Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:48 am
by earthbrah
The Colossus was basically an Elohim bound in rock, right? And in Fatal Revenant we learn that it was the trees that did this! Apparently, they were more powerful than the Elohim.
But wasn't it also an Elohim who created the Forestals? Does that make two Elohim involved here, one to create the Forestals, one to get trapped in stone as an interdict?
Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:01 am
by Relayer
When the Elohim taught the Forest(s) how to defend themselves, this gave them the lore to create the Forestals to marshal their defenses. From this knowledge, they also gained the lore and desire to bind that same Elohim.
Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:28 am
by earthbrah
Ah, so the same Elohim who taught the trees how to create Forestals got bound into stone by the same lore he entrusted them with.
That's some sucky justice for that dude!
Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:12 am
by dlbpharmd
One only has to read the TIW chapter "Garroting Deep" to appreciate just how powerful the Forestals were. Caerroil Wildwood led the trees in destroying Foul's WHOLE army, then defeated the Giant-Raver AND destroyed his chunk of the Illearth Stone. That's really badass in my book. But Wildwood also had great knowledge and lore, the creation of the runes on Linden's staff demonstrate this quite adequately.
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:50 pm
by shadowbinding shoe
Speculation: If there were two waves of human invasion into the One Forest, one into the Lower Lands where they interacted with the malevolence of the Sarangrave/Lifeswallower to create the Ravers, and another later into the upper lands must we assume they were the same humans?
There are hosts of disfigured creatures with some degree of resemblance to human form living in the Lower Lands. Could they be the remnants of that first invasion of humans into the One Forest? They must have come from somewhere. Interacting with the malevolence there and creating the ravers should have affected them somewhat.
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:20 pm
by wayfriend
I guess we can't assume. But there's certainly no mention of where any other humans might have come from.
During the time of TPTP, Foul warped people with the Illearth Stone and then bred them to create his army of mutants. They could have come from anywhere.
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:24 pm
by Fist and Faith
In TIW, SRD wrote:No, the Colossus of the Fall forbade another foe - three tree- and soil hating brothers who were old in the spoiled plains before Lord Foul cast his first shadow there. They were triplets, the spawn of one birth from the womb of their long-forgotten mother, and their names were samadhi, moksha, and turiya. They hated the Earth and all its growing things, just as Lord Foul hates all life and love. When the Colossus eased its interdict, they came to the Upper Land, and in their lust for revenge and dismay fell swiftly under the mastery of the Despiser. From that time, they have been his highest servants...
In TOT, SRD wrote:"In the nigh-unremembered past of the place which you deem the Land, the life was not the life of men and women, but of trees. One wide forest of sentience and passion filled all the region - one mind and heart alive in every leaf and bough of every tree among the many myriad throngs and the glory of the woods. And that life the Elohim loved.
"But a hate rose against the forest, seeking its destruction. And this was dire, for a tree may love and feel pain and cry out, but has few means of defense. The knowledge was lacking. Therefore we met, and from among us Appointed one to give her life to that forest. This she did by merging among the trees until they gained the knowledge they required.
"Their knowledge they employed to bind her in stone, exercising her name and being to form an interdict against that hate. Thus was she lost to herself and to her people, but the interdict remained while the will of the forest remained to hold it."
"The Colossus," Covenant breathed. "The Colossus of the Fall."
"Yes," Findail said.
"And when people started coming to the Land, started cutting down the trees as if they were just so much timber and difficulty, the forest used what it'd learned to create the Forestals in self-defense. Only it took too long, and there were too many people, and the Forestals weren't enough, they couldn't be everywhere at once, couldn't stop the many blind or cruel or simply unscrupulous axes and fires. They were lucky to keep the mind of the forest awake as long as they did."
"Yes," Findail said again.
In RotE, SRD wrote:"For a time, those who had come to the Land felled trees and charred trunks only because they knew not how else they might achieve space for homes and fields. Thus was their cruelty at first restrained. But their restraint was brutal and brief by the measure of the One Forest's slow sentience. And after those generations, humankind discovered malevolence, or was discovered by it. Then the murder of the trees was transformed from disregard to savagery.
"Hence came Ravers to the Land," the old' man rasped bitterly, "for they were the admixture of men and malevolence, an enduring hunger for evil coalesced and concentrated in transient flesh generation after swift generation until they became beings unto themselves - spirits capable of flesh, yet spared the necessities of death and birth. Thus they gained names and definition, three dark souls who knew themselves as they knew the One Forest, and who aspired above all things to trample underfoot its vast and vulnerable sentience."
Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:56 am
by Borric
Are the Ravers related to the Insequents?
Maybe there parents?
There power comes from somewhere.
(Sorry if this is off topic)
Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:38 am
by Ur Dead
Just a thought.
There had to be traveling bands of people in the Land way before Berek's time. How else would Berek's army get their meager supplies? There might have been two periods of time which large groups in people migrated into the Land. They created new villages or settled in a established village.
It could be that the malevolence felt by the one forest was drawn away by the river's (which had Earthpower within them) to be carried to and through Mount Thunder. This malevolence was then corrupted further by the banes buried under the mountain and settled in the Sangrave.
If my memory serves me, then it was Foul whom sparked life into the Lurker(from the pooled malevolences) and it was the Lurker whom formed the ravers. It was the ravers who accelerated the destruction of the forest around the Sangrave. According to FR, Anele relates that the stone itself took pity on the forest and caused Landsdrop.(This could be the time of Kastenessen) But the main damage had been done where there were three seperated forests within the Land. The Elohim then sent their appointed to teach the forest a lore where it could protect itself.
(This could have happened over thousands of years. )
This is all conjecture on my part.
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:51 am
by Pharaoh
I have always been curious about the parentage of the Ravers. I have aways been curious about why they hate the trees so much as well.