Kevin's Watch

[mod edit - title changed]

Did we really see Jeremiah or was it 100% Croyel?

Linden's never seen Jeremiah react to anything or even heard him speak.
He's been nothing ever since she's know him, a blank slate.
So she has nothing to reference him to.
Was it in fact Jeremiah that we saw being so animate with TC/Roger?
Was there anything he said that wasn't Croyel created?
I don't remember him referencing anything in the real world, just once he said of Linden something like "yep, that's my Mom" which on the face of it means nothing.

And TC/Roger seemed to know all about Lindens past actions in the Land.
Who taught him?

(I feel bad for anyone who hasn't read FR yet and clicks "view posts since last visit". See Subjects are Spoilers Too!)

wayfriend wrote:(I feel bad for anyone who hasn't read FR yet and clicks "view posts since last visit". See Subjects are Spoilers Too!)

Good call.

It's been over a year now though. I thought once Jay finally finished a book the spoilers come down.

I still think FR spoilers need to stay in the FR forum. We have just unlocked the forum. And thanks for the rename.

Anyway ... I will try to re-rail your thread.

I have noticed in the course of the action after Jeremiah's guise is revealed that Donaldson pretty much consistently writes, the croyel did this, the croyel did that.

I think we can assume from this that the croyel did everything all along.

It was also revealed that Jeremiah can't even speak. So he could not have said all those things to Linden, it must have been the croyel.

Apparently, Jeremiah does contribute his powers and his memories to the symbiosis. After that, it's all croyel I guess. And Linden's question is, is Jeremiah providing this against his will, or in accordance to his will?

As for learning what Linden did, well, Lord Foul would know a lot, and he could have learned a lot from the Masters and the people of the Land surreptitiously, or heard the Giantish stories they surely made, and he could have learned it when the Raver possessed Linden, and maybe even Jeremiah *saw* Linden during some of his visits to the Land. The means are too numerous to contemplate. Maybe the Despiser read the Second Chronicles to see how he comes off.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:[mod edit - title changed]

Did we really see Jeremiah or was it 100% Croyel?

It was 100% Croyel - by Jeremiah's own free-will. Jeremiah is certainly conscious through this experience, and through it he is able to be something that he could never be in the "real" world.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:[mod edit - title changed]

Did we really see Jeremiah or was it 100% Croyel?

It was 100% Croyel - by Jeremiah's own free-will. Jeremiah is certainly conscious through this experience, and through it he is able to be something that he could never be in the "real" world.

I'd like to add to this the thought that SRD is playing with the readers' sympathies more than a little bit here. Jeremiah appears to be a victim of some devious plot and a terrifying form of kidnapping through mind-control, but in fact he has own naive motives and goals, simple as they may be, simple because he is still an autistic child after all. They are not complex and evil like Rogers'. it is likely that Jeremiah doesn't even know what good and evil are, but he is likely to enjoy the ride wherever it may take him.

I think you will also see some role-reversal in this series, as with the GAP: victim will become rescuer, villain will become victim, and rescuer will become villain. Consider this in terms of the three-way entanglement we are already given: Linden - rescuer, Roger - Villain, Jeremiah - Victim. Or are they?

In the GAP series, Morn the victim became the rescuer of the villain. In this series, Jeremiah the victim will become the rescuer - through his own form of magic. And he will rescue the villain, Roger.

In the GAP series, Angus the villain became the victim of Nick. In this series, Roger the villain becomes the victim of Linden, to be rescued by Jeremiah.

In the GAP series, Nick the rescuer becomes the villain of the story. In this series, Linden the rescuer becomes the villain of the story.

There is no doubt in my mind that Linden is the true villain of the story. Her first decision upon her second summonsing to the Land was to use her power. You have seen this decision to use power used against her time and time again, and it will be the undoing of the Land.

And, I believe, when Linden learns the truth behind the truth she uncovered in the depths of Melenkurian Skyweir, that may be the end of any sympathies she ever held for the Land. There is a mask underlying the masks uncovered there, the illusion was generated to hide yet another illusion. Physically the illusion is penetrated, but not the psychological illusion which is a motif being played out behind our backs.

And the truth is that Jeremiah does not want to be rescued, that Linden's child-worship is terribly misguided, and that her misguided love for her son is being used against her in devious ways, just as, on a simpler level, Angus's lust for Morn was used against him in devious ways.
She is being duped through her own emotions, but the terrible truth is that even her own son would have no problem with this if he understood it at all.