Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:59 am**

Not a fatal inconsistency, but one I haven't seen mentioned yet. It has to do with the new Staff of Law.

from the GI wrote: "Now, of course (I mean after "The Second Chronicles") *all* of Kevin's lore has effectively ceased to exist. (Linden's new Staff of Law doesn't even have *runes,* for crying out loud.)"

Does the new Staff even need runes? It was given some in FR. However, in WGW we read on page 460:

"Living Law filled the bands of lore; living power shone in
every fiber of the wood. The old Staff had been rune-carved
to define its purpose. But this Staff was alive, almost sentient:
it did not need runes."

As a synthesis of two beings, one a being of pure Earthpower, and the other "had been so perfectly made that he attained the stature of natural Law," the Staff of Law did not need runes.

Posted: **Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:29 pm**

I'm perplexed by this also, Worm.

Posted: **Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:53 pm**

I was confused by this at first, but then I became convinced that the comment about the Staff not needing runes was one of Linden's perception and not one from the omnisicent narrator (similar to the comment in ROTE that "Because the ur-viles had betrayed Lord Foul, he had destroyed them all.")

Posted: **Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:12 pm**

Borillar wrote:I was confused by this at first, but then I became convinced that the comment about the Staff not needing runes was one of Linden's perception and not one from the omnisicent narrator (similar to the comment in ROTE that "Because the ur-viles had betrayed Lord Foul, he had destroyed them all.")

But, Linden never actually saw the old Staff, so how would she know the new Staff was so different?

Posted: **Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:25 pm**

dlbpharmd wrote:But, Linden never actually saw the old Staff, so how would she know the new Staff was so different?

Didn't TC describe it to her?
Also, I think she may have seen Elena holding it when she met TC's dead. I could be wrong, though - I'm at work, so I can't check.

Posted: **Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:36 pm**

I can't recall a description of the Staff by TC, perhaps you're right. I don't think Elena held the staff in Andelain.

Posted: **Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:00 pm**

The Runes CW added to her staff were for a very specific purpose, and dealt with the Laws of Life and Death.

There is a (very) ambiguous statement at the end of FR about that.

WHY they were necessary for her final act, we don't know.

Posted: **Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:00 pm**

Rigel wrote:The Runes CW added to her staff were for a very specific purpose, and dealt with the Laws of Life and Death.

There is a (very) ambiguous statement at the end of FR about that.

WHY they were necessary for her final act, we don't know.

The very specific purpose would have to do with TC, which is what I think you're saying obliquely. The staff without runes should have been sufficient unto itself for that task.

Posted: **Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:19 am**

It may deal with the prespective on how each staff was made.
The "First staff" (Berek's Halfhands) was from the One Tree (which may be an extention of the Worm) The runes were placed probably as a binding for Earthpower and Law to be cojoined.

The "Second/New staff" was a combination of Vain & Findail. Rigid Structure that housed Fluidic Power. Vain's making providedthe structure of Law, but it was flawed because of the Law of Death had been broken. When that staff was placed in the Earthblood it was transformed or to speculate, it was "Remade " or "Recreated" . CW's statement that it wasn't complete may refers to the tranformation/remaking. Thus by adding Runes he has added a constraint that allows for the Law of Death to be manipulated selectively.

Which brings up other questions. Can two Staff of Law exist at the same time? In these Chronicles, the staff Linden carries existed before Berek's Staff. As per a timeframe. Which one has precedence? Or can both exist at the same time and operate independently?

Posted: **Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:24 pm**

Runes, as we have come to see, are a physical manifestation of the lore of the Staff's weilders. When they have the lore, they embody that lore as runes into the Staff. The Staff thereby becomes strengthened (and also limited) by that lore.

When it is stated that the New Staff "did not need runes", I think it only means that it did not need runes for what was needed at that time - heal the sunbane, restore some natural balance to the Land.

But it was insufficient for other things. I think one was the resurrection of Covenant.

(IIRC, in the GI Donaldson mentions that Linden's healing of the Land may not have been as good as it might have been had there been runes - lore - informed knowledge - guiding her work.)

It seems to me that Donaldson only glancingly mentioned this runes/lore problem in the Second Cs. Enough to set the stage.

In the Final Cs, this issue is coming to the fore. The Viles dwelt on it; Caer Caveral addressed it. I know we'll find out alot more.

Posted: **Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:32 pm**

Elena was most certainly not holding the SOL when Linden saw her in Andelain. Yet it does not surpass credibility that TC described the old Staff to her at some point. After all, the entire Quest of TOT was focused on it. What's more puzzling is how, in FR, Linden "guesses" that the woman she sees in Andelain is Elena, even though she clearly saw Elena in Andelain in WGW.

On a related note:

Spoiler

After a re-read of FR, I have the strongest feeling that Linden's staff and Berek's staff are going to turn out to be one and the same. I know there are facts to contradict that (such as the fact that the One Tree had part of one branch cut off when it was visited in TOT, and that the Theomach assisted Berek in visiting the One Tree by defeating the Elohim guardian), but the feeling persists nonetheless.

Posted: **Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:00 pm**

On the relationship of runes to lore.

In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson wrote:... the breaking of the Law of Life, and the resurrection of Hollian, were absolutely critical to both "The Second Chronicles" and "The Last Chronicles". And the fact that Linden's Staff is not informed by the lore of the Old Lords is no accident.

(09/10/2008)

Posted: **Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:22 pm**

The new staff is not informed by lore, but neither is it informed by raw Earthpower (since Earthpower by itself does not inform anything); it is informed by and limited to the strengths and passions of its wielder. Raw Earthpower is only filtered through the staff by its wielder. If the form it takes is determined by runes, it is then limited to the lore of the runes' creator, and may work with or against the passions of its wielder.

For example, the staff of law wielded by the new lords was not informed by the Oath of Peace, its runes made that staff incapable of molding Earthpower toward the aims of that Oath. No matter how passionate its wielder is about his Oath, that staff would remain 'deaf' to those particular passions because of the runes made at its creation. (These runes and the lore that they reflect could be called the law of its creation.)

The reason the new lords made only slow progress in understanding Kevin's Lore had to do with the Oath of Peace. Mhoram threw the Krill of Loric into Glimmermere in order to give up the quest to understand the old lore and begin a new lore based upon the Oath. At that time they lacked a staff so they were free to pursue new lore but limited by the loss of an instrument of Earthpower.

The new staff is limited only to the passions and strengths of its wielder and is not limited to runes or the lore that goes into creating them. It is pure potential limited by no law except the passions and strengths of its wielder. Its use could therefore directly serve the aims of Corruption, Earthpower could be wielded against itself as was often the case in the events of the first Chronicles, and the Ritual of Desecration before that.

Posted: **Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:38 pm**

I agree, except for two things.

First, the runes on the Staff limit what it can do, but it also makes it better at what it can do. A sacrifice of versatility for power. Or, better yet, an increase in accuracy at the cost of range.

The evidence is that Linden would not have been able to resurrect TC, or resurrect him correctly, without those runes. Which shows that they don't just limit, they also enhance.

Second, the incorporation of Elohim, Vain, the essence of the One Tree, and the heels of the old Staff didn't make any old stick - they made a new Staff of Law. Which implies a lot. It implies that, in and of itself, it has limitations arising from its dedication to upholding Law.

So the runes are add-ons. The Staff already had limitations as well as powers. The runes increase the limitations, but also increase its powers. And, because the runes come from someone's lore, these increases reflect the nature of that someone, and presumably make it a better tool for that someone.

Posted: **Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:09 pm**

I agree that runes help to focus its power - to focus it in the direction dictated by the runes' creator, the particular lore at his bidding, and the passion he put into their creation.

CW engraved the new staff with runes but we don't know what lore he put into them, if any. It is obviously not the lore of the old lords since they didn't exist yet. Nor did he seem to be aware of the use that LA intended to put the staff to. And do Forestals even have lore?

Not knowing the answer to that, I would have to conclude that the staff's power was focused, not in terms of any particular lore, but in terms of LA's particular passions wherever they may lead - backed up by the strength of an immensely powerful practically immortal being.

And so - and this is an idea you neglected to mention from my previous post - the runes gave added strength to the task, lending the kind of support that LA lacked in her mortality, in that the magic she wielded at that time would certainly have overwhelmed and possibly killed her without those runes.

I agree that the runes were placed there aimed by SRD toward the conclusion of FR, but the new staff of Living Law did not require runes. It did require something, however, that LA and the staff did not have - she had the strength of a Forestal behind her.

That's the only thing I can figure the runes were for.

Posted: **Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:12 pm**

The lore of the forestals is a derivative of the Elohim-lore, as Linden tells us when she observes the battle between CW and the Viles (they got it when that Elohim came to protect them from the Ravers and the humans). Though maybe that's only part of their lore and they have a native forest-lore of their own beside that.

In WGW the staff was described as more intelligent and so less vulnerable to misuse as the old staff because it was built from intelligent beings instead of a piece of wood and some iron and ink.

The idea that CW gave the staff missing laws of life and death is problematic. If this was true than how can Linden resurrect people (and before that observe ghosts of dead people) with the runed staff in her hand? The moment she returned to the present the laws of life and death should have come crashing back into the Land.

Posted: **Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:04 pm**

shadowbinding shoe wrote:The lore of the forestals is a derivative of the Elohim-lore, as Linden tells us when she observes the battle between CW and the Viles (they got it when that Elohim came to protect them from the Ravers and the humans). Though maybe that's only part of their lore and they have a native forest-lore of their own beside that.

In WGW the staff was described as more intelligent and so less vulnerable to misuse as the old staff because it was built from intelligent beings instead of a piece of wood and some iron and ink.

The idea that CW gave the staff missing laws of life and death is problematic. If this was true than how can Linden resurrect people (and before that observe ghosts of dead people) with the runed staff in her hand? The moment she returned to the present the laws of life and death should have come crashing back into the Land.

You may be right that the forestals have lore derived from the Elohim. But I'm trying to find where the new staff was described as being more intelligent and less vulnerable to misuse. It says in WGW:

Living Law filled the bands of lore; living power shone in
every fiber of the wood. The old Staff had been rune-carved
to define its purpose. But this Staff was alive, almost sentient:
it did not need runes.

Almost sentient? Isn't that like being "almost" pregnant? And doesn't "sentient" mean "aware"? What does "almost aware" mean?

I don't think there was any ink on the old staff, the runes were carvings.

Do we even know what runes CW gave the new staff or what they were for? And the old staff wasn't just a piece of wood, it was a piece of the One Tree just like the new staff.

Posted: **Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:43 pm**

The more I think about it, the more i cant believe the original staff was a branch off the one tree.

It just does not ring true for me, that Berek would hack a branch off it.
Or the guardian/worm would allow it.
Especially without any white gold, how can you cut the one tree up?

Lindens staff was the result of vain and a Elohim.
Fused with white gold.
Now that sounds true to me, pure earth power and structural form.

But the original staff?.
A branch?. I duno, sounds thin somehow to me.
There must be more to it.

The runes….
Did the old lords use them?. I cant see any evidence of that anywhere.
I don’t see any runes inscribed in lords keep.
I find it easier to accept the forestall would though.
So I feel both sets of runes where from a forestall.

If both sets are. maybe the forestall only performed this one.
Meaning the old and new staffs are the one and the same staff.
Lindens staff has undergone changes so far. All we need is for it to fatten out a little and lose the new black color and you have a description of the old staff.
With bands and runes etc.

Hey presto.
No need to to rack your brain trying to figure out how berek cut the branch from the one tree any longer.
Because he didn’t. he received the staff from the guardian at the one trees location, where in was in safe keeping.
The Theomach had to defeat the old guardian to accept stewardship over the staff, so he could hand it over to Berek.

As it’s the same staff?
(left there by Linden)

As for “can two staffs exist at he same time and space?”.
I’d say no to that. And I believe it was the real reason Roger was diverted from his original plan by the Theomach.
As that would have meant lindens staff and the one Damelon was carrying in the same time and place.

Posted: **Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:45 pm**

wow, Boric...you may have spoiled one of SRDs ideas...

Posted: **Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:56 pm**

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: You may be right that the forestals have lore derived from the Elohim. But I'm trying to find where the new staff was described as being more intelligent and less vulnerable to misuse. It says in WGW:

Living Law filled the bands of lore; living power shone in
every fiber of the wood. The old Staff had been rune-carved
to define its purpose. But this Staff was alive, almost sentient:
it did not need runes.
Almost sentient? Isn't that like being "almost" pregnant? And doesn't "sentient" mean "aware"? What does "almost aware" mean?

Let's see. How sentient is a piece of wood. None? And how about a worm? Now compare them to a cat. If the cat is more sentient than the piece of wood and the worm we have a scale of sentience. If we define man's sentience as =1 the others would have varying fractions of it between 0 and 1. So the new staff of law was probably on the level of a chimp.

As for its meaning I think it's about self consciousness:

sen·tient (snshnt, -sh-nt)
adj.
1. Having sense perception; conscious: "The living knew themselves just sentient puppets on God's stage" T.E. Lawrence.
2. Experiencing sensation or feeling.

You can be self aware while not being very intelligent. That's important for the staff because it allows it to decide it doesn't like to do something and refuse to do it, something the old staff couldn't do when it was used to do evil deeds.

Code: Select all

I don't think there was any ink on the old staff, the runes were carvings.

Do we even know what runes CW gave the new staff or what they were for? And the old staff wasn't just a piece of wood, it was a piece of the One Tree just like the new staff.

There wasn't even ink? Well, my point stands. In my opinion Findail and Vain were more intelligent (and sentient for that matter) than the One Tree. It may be a great tree but there was no sign for either of those things in it anywhere in the books.

Kevin's Watch

An Inconsistency in the Chronicles

An Inconsistency in the Chronicles