Kevin's Watch

Maybe I'm just stupid or something, but...Why were the Elohim so dead-set against the successful creation of a replacement Staff of Law in the 2nd Chronicles? I've read the entire series many times, beginning in the mid-80's. So after all these years, I still can't figure that one out. Only thing that "might" make sense, is that SRD willfully did so, in order to have another story-thread to play with in the Last Chrons, but even I'm not really buying into that one. Any comments, Earthfriends????

spoonchicken wrote:Maybe I'm just stupid or something, but...Why were the Elohim so dead-set against the successful creation of a replacement Staff of Law in the 2nd Chronicles? I've read the entire series many times, beginning in the mid-80's. So after all these years, I still can't figure that one out. Only thing that "might" make sense, is that SRD willfully did so, in order to have another story-thread to play with in the Last Chrons, but even I'm not really buying into that one. Any comments, Earthfriends????

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I think Findail was Appointed to retrieve the white gold for the Elohim. Becoming part of the new Staff was his penalty for failure.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

spoonchicken wrote:Maybe I'm just stupid or something, but...Why were the Elohim so dead-set against the successful creation of a replacement Staff of Law in the 2nd Chronicles? I've read the entire series many times, beginning in the mid-80's. So after all these years, I still can't figure that one out. Only thing that "might" make sense, is that SRD willfully did so, in order to have another story-thread to play with in the Last Chrons, but even I'm not really buying into that one. Any comments, Earthfriends????

[edit]
I think Findail was Appointed to retrieve the white gold for the Elohim. Becoming part of the new Staff was his penalty for failure.

I think this is true, but also, Findail knew Vain's purpose, and that he and Vain would ultimately be merged into the new staff of law. Findail feared he would not survive this merging. For a race that is immortal, death is even more abhorrant -- Findail was a coward and feared this end.

in WGW, it was writ:

Clinging to Vain's shoulder, the Appointed murmered like a child,"I am Elohim. Katenessen cursed me with death. But I am not made for death. I must not die. "

Actually, I'm pretty sure they weren't opposed to a new staff per se, but to all the things that could go wrong (including the end of all by waking the worm) with the process to achieve it..especially since their 'vision' seemed mistaken (linden without ring). They appointed Findail, and so participated in the creation of a new staff.

iQuestor wrote:Findail feared he would not survive this merging. For a race that is immortal, death is even more abhorrant -- Findail was a coward and feared this end.

Yeah, he feared his end. But I wouldn't call him a coward for that. A being like an Elohim... He's existed for an untold, but certainly huge, number of centuries. He is, by nature, eternal (or at least should live as long as the Earth lives), so expects to be around for a looooooooong time to come. He's more powerful than any of us can imagine. What must if feel like to be one of them? How does their outlook on... everything differ from ours? But now, all that ends. "Your days are numbered in the dozens." Not cowardly for one of them to not want that fate, imo.

Fist and Faith wrote:

iQuestor wrote:Findail feared he would not survive this merging. For a race that is immortal, death is even more abhorrant -- Findail was a coward and feared this end.

Yeah, he feared his end. But I wouldn't call him a coward for that. A being like an Elohim... He's existed for an untold, but certainly huge, number of centuries. He is, by nature, eternal (or at least should live as long as the Earth lives), so expects to be around for a looooooooong time to come. He's more powerful than any of us can imagine. What must if feel like to be one of them? How does their outlook on... everything differ from ours? But now, all that ends. "Your days are numbered in the dozens." Not cowardly for one of them to not want that fate, imo.

The only thing immortal about the Elohim is their inherent narcissism. But I wonder: if an Elohim can be "killed" or imprisoned in this way, then why can't LF?

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:The only thing immortal about the Elohim is their inherent narcissism.

Certainly that. Heh. But really, unless something extremely unusual comes along, they're immortal. Something like Vain. He is a work of extremely powerful lore, and he was made for the exact purpose of binding one of them.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:But I wonder: if an Elohim can be "killed" or imprisoned in this way, then why can't LF?

Because he's from outside the Arch of Time. That seems to give him protection from anything made within the Arch. Even Earthblood. Maybe the Creator could make an equivalent of Vain to bind Foul. Of course, he couldn't get Foul into it without destroying the Arch. Which is something he doesn't want to do.

Fist and Faith wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:The only thing immortal about the Elohim is their inherent narcissism.

Certainly that. Heh. But really, unless something extremely unusual comes along, they're immortal. Something like Vain. He is a work of extremely powerful lore, and he was made for the exact purpose of binding one of them.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:But I wonder: if an Elohim can be "killed" or imprisoned in this way, then why can't LF?

Because he's from outside the Arch of Time. That seems to give him protection from anything made within the Arch. Even Earthblood. Maybe the Creator could make an equivalent of Vain to bind Foul. Of course, he couldn't get Foul into it without destroying the Arch. Which is something he doesn't want to do.

Are TC and LA from outside the Arch?

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Are TC and LA from outside the Arch?

The reason I ask is that since TC is from beyond the Arch, and since he has already affirmed that he and LF are one, then they may just as well merge into some useful form.

Yeah, they are. So Earthblood couldn't Command them, either.

This is one of the toughest questions about the Chronicles, in my opinion. Understanding why the Elohim so opposed Covenant and Linden.

In the What Has Gone Before section of Runes, Donaldson reveals something interesting.

In [u]The Runes of the Earth[/u] was wrote:The quest for the One Tree takes Covenant and Linden first to the land of the Elohim, cryptic beings of pure Earthpower who appear to understand and perhaps control the destiny of the Earth. The Elohim agree to reveal the location of the One Tree, but they exact a price: they cripple Covenant's mind, enclosing his consciousness in a kind of stasis, purportedly to protect the Earth from his growing power, but in fact to prevent him from carrying out Vain's unnamed purpose. Guided now by Linden's determination rather than Covenant's, the Search sets sail for the Isle of the One Tree.

Unexpectedly, however, they are joined by one of the Elohim, Findail, who has been Appointed to ensure that Vain's purpose fails - and to bear the consequences if it does not.

So here, if in perhaps no other place, Donaldson states that the Elohim are in fact opposed to Vain's purpose. It may be that they oppose creation of a new Staff of Law altogether, or maybe they only oppose the creation of one through the means Vain provides.

The reason may not have been answered yet. Or the reason may be as simple as they did not want the new Staff created until Covenant ceded the ring to Linden. (What would have happened if Covenant had tried to make the Staff? I should think, without any percipience or even health sense, it would have been a disaster. Then again, Vain seemed to "engage" upon the signal that Linden had the ring. Which argues that it would have been impossible for Covenant to try.)

It may be that beings of pure Earthpower find tools which weild and, in essence, control Earthpower, to be inimical.

If they feared rousing the Worm in the process of creating the Staff, well, their fears seem unfounded.

Could they ultimately have forseen what happened at the end of FR, and for that reason have been opposed to the creation of the Staff since day one?

Here's a thought, to flesh out what Wayfriend just said. "It may be that beings of pure Earthpower find tools which weild and, in essence, control Earthpower, to be inimical."

From TWL - Soothtell:

For the Staff of Law had been formed by Berek Halfhand as a tool to serve and uphold the Law. He had fashioned the Staff from a limb of the One Tree as a way to wield Earthpower in defense of the health of the Land, in support of the natural order of life. And because Earthpower was the strength of mystery and spirit, the Staff became the thing it served. It was the Law; the Law was incarnate in the Staff. The tool and its purpose were one.

And the Staff had been destroyed.

That loss had weakened the very fiber of the Law. A crucial support was withdrawn, and the Law faltered.

From that seed grew both the Sunbane and the Clave.

Foul couldn't corrupt the Law in the beginning. The Earthpower knew itself. It was strong. It was solid. Something like the Sunbane was impossible. The Earthpower would have seen it coming a mile off. It would have said, "Are you kidding?? Get out of here, ya little brat!"

But then, in order to help humans wield Earthpower, the Earthpower itself (or the Creator, a Final Chrons spoiler, or whatever) helped Berek make the Staff of Law. Unfortunately, while helping humans understand things, the Staff caused an unforseen problem. Think of the Staff as a rulebook. The Earthpower got so used to reading the rules whenever it needed to know anything that it forgot that it knew the rules before the book was written!

And when the book was burned, it couldn't remember any of the rules. Now, Foul could corrupt it! He couldn't before the Staff, because the Earthpower knew itself. It was strong. It was solid. Now, it couldn't remember itself. It was weak. It was malleable.

So a new rulebook was needed. A new Staff. With the rules firmly re-established, Foul wouldn't be able to corrupt the Earthpower again.

BUT!!

There are others in the world who might be affected by this! Foul might not be the only one. Maybe the Staff also forces limitations on the Elohim. Where the manipulation of Earthpower is concerned, they have to follow the same rules as Foul, and everybody else, does. But they actually are Earthpower! Whereas Foul is only limited in how he can manipulate Earthpower, the Elohim are limited in how they can manipulate themselves. How must it feel for them to feel the limits of their own selves, their own self-expression, suddenly restricted??? How would it feel to us if, suddenly, all humans were limited to walking, and couldn't run? What lengths would we go to to prevent the creation of a device that did that to us?

Since the creation of a new Staff required a being of Earthpower incarnate, sending Findail along with the questors was an unwise move to say the least.

wayfriend wrote: Could they ultimately have forseen what happened at the end of FR, and for that reason have been opposed to the creation of the Staff since day one?

That's what I was about to say.

I'm going to have to think about this some more before I post in more detail. (It's Monday morning )

Great points (as usual) by Wayfriend and Fist. We may need to get further insight via the next two books to really know.

I will just add what I had always thought (regardless of my special quality of not always thinking things all the way through): The Elohim with the obvious exception of Findail weren't opposed to the new staff so much as they didn't like TC having the ring (or more specifically that Ring Bearer and Sun Sage were not one.)

I know that they imprisoned and then tried to destroy/unmake Vain (and really got on my bad side in doing so. ) but if they were completely against the creation of a new staff then they may have made more of an efffort to prevent it's creation. They wouldn't have appointed Findail if the staff's creation wasn't an acceptable fall-back plan. Here is my take on the Elohim's preferences:

Plan A - The Elohim are given the ring and use it against LF. (They seemed to think they could succeed by I do not believe that would be true.)
Plan B - The Sunsage has the ring
Plan C - Findail picks up the check.

The overt goal of the Elohim in WGW was to recover the white gold. There is no sign of any covert goal, although Findail refused to answer questions about Vain's purpose. The reader will just have to wait until the end to discover his secret.

Findail: "Surely it is plain that for us the easiest path lay in the
simple wresting from him of the ring. With wild magic could we
bid any Despite defiance. Then for beings such as we are it
would be no great task to achieve the perfection of the Earth.
Yet that we did not do. Some among us feared the arrogance
of such power, when a shadow plainly lay upon our hearts.
And some saw that the entire price of such an act would fall
upon you alone. You would be lost to yourselves, deprived of
meaning and value. Perhaps the meaning and value of the
Earth would be diminished as well.

"Therefore we chose a harder path—to share with you the
burden of redemption and the risk of doom. The ring-wielder
we silenced, not to harm him, but to spare the Earth the ill
of power without sight. As that silence preserved him from
the malice of Kasreyn of the Gyre, so also would it have
preserved him from the Despiser's intent at the One Tree. Thus
the choice would have fallen to you in the end. His ring you
might have taken unto yourself, thereby healing the breach
between sight and power. Or perhaps you might have ceded
the ring to me, empowering the Elohim to save the Earth after
their fashion. Then would we have had no need to fear
ourselves, for a power given is altogether different than one
wrested away. But whatever your choice, there would have
been hope. To accomplish such hope, the price of the
ringwielder's silence—and of my Appointment—appeared to be
neither too great nor too ill.

"That you took from us. In the dungeon of the Sandhold,
you chose the wrong which you name possession above the
responsibility of sight, and the hope we strove to nurture was
lost.

"Now I say to you that he must be persuaded to surrender
his ring. If he does not, it is certain that he will destroy the
Earth."

Thanks, TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd! Those were the quotes I was trying to remember. Great stuff.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:To accomplish such hope, the price of the
ringwielder's silence—and of my Appointment—appeared to be
neither too great nor too ill.

The elohim sacrificed any chance that TC would give them the ring willingly by silencing him. They also, in theory, stopped him using the wild magic to make the Staff of Law, leaving Findail free. The only other way to make the Staff would be if Linden used the Wild magic herself, which she couldn't do unless TC gave it to her.

They thought they had all their bases covered.

Findail is not to be trusted.

Covenant could not give the ring to Linden or to Findail if he is silenced. It would be a power wrested away, not given. And Linden would have to "choose the wrong which you name possession" in order to accomplish either of these.

Makes no sense.

The Elohim can't really want the ring. "We are what we are - and what we are not, we can never become." If any action is not already within their ability, then they cannot do it. So what use the ring?

Findail said, in Elemesnedene, "We desire no hurt to him. We desire only to prevent the hurt which he will otherwise commit.".

If the Elohim truly desired to prevent Vain's purpose, it must somehow be that Covenant will cause some "hurt" which would not be if there were no new Staff of Law.

wayfriend wrote:
The Elohim can't really want the ring. "We are what we are - and what we are not, we can never become." If any action is not already within their ability, then they cannot do it. So what use the ring?

This goes back to Findail's statement in the quote above about achieving the perfection of the Earth. This is something no being in the Earth can achieve, but wild magic is not of the Earth.

Kasreyn of the Gyre said:

"You have seen," the Kemper continued as he worked, "that I possess an ocular of gold. Purest gold-a rare and puissant metal in such hands as mine. With such aids, my arts work great wonders, of which Sandgorgons Doom is not the greatest. But my arts are also pure, as a circle is pure, and in a flawed world purity cannot endure. Thus within each of my
works I must perforce place one small flaw, else there would be no work at all." He stepped back for a moment to survey his preparations. Then he leaned his face close to Covenant's as if he wished the Unbeliever to understand him. "Even within the work of my longevity there lies a flaw, and through that flaw my life leaks from me drop by drop. Knowing perfection-possessing perfect implements-I have of necessity wrought imperfection upon myself.

"Thomas Covenant, I am going to die." Once again, he withdrew, muttering half to himself. "That is intolerable."

"But you possess white gold." Behind their rheum, his orbs seemed to have no color. "It is an imperfect metal-an unnatural alliance of metals-and in all the Earth it exists nowhere but in the ring you bear. My arts have spoken to me of such a periapt, but never did I dream that the white gold itself would fall to me. The white gold! Thomas Covenant, you reck little what you wield. Its imperfection is the very paradox of which the Earth is made, and with it a master may form perfect works and fear nothing."