Kevin's Watch

I don't own a copy of the 2nd chrons, but I swear I recall that after Covenant surrendered to/defeated Foul, he says to Linden, "Now it's your turn. Pick up the ring." Seems like "ceding" to me.

So why is she questioning whether or not she is the rightful wielder, and even entertaining the thought that it might be Roger instead of her? Did I miss something? [/i]

TC 'gave' her his ring in the Land.

That's kind of a difficult one to explain to the son. "Actually, your father gave it to me while we were sharing a dream."

That's what I've always assumed, anyway.

deer of the dawn wrote:I don't own a copy of the 2nd chrons, but I swear I recall that after Covenant surrendered to/defeated Foul, he says to Linden, "Now it's your turn. Pick up the ring." Seems like "ceding" to me.

So why is she questioning whether or not she is the rightful wielder, and even entertaining the thought that it might be Roger instead of her? Did I miss something?

I need to know where you read about Linden questioning her ownership of the ring. The only question I know of is a legal one. Once Roger turned 21 he inherited his father's estate by default since his mother is legally incompetent. That estate may include his father's wedding ring. But Linden has already argued at the beginning of Runes that the ring "fell" to her before he died, making her its legal possessor.

I don't know why Linden would think Roger in the Land was the ring's true wielder unless she had lapsed into a moment of self-doubt. But I can't know that without some kind of quote.

I can't comment on her questioning the ownership (her versus Roger), but I can say that my distinct impression was that TC gave her the ring in the Land.

However, that just made me think of something. I don't mean to side track DotD's nice thread here but I am confused. I will have to check the book when I get home tonight, but in WGW didn't Linden return to our world from the Land not in possession (pardon the expression ) of TC's ring? That is consistent (as usual) with the fact that the circumstances of a person's coming to and returning from the Land are the same. TC always shaves, gets equivalent injuries, et cetera just prior to going back to the "real" world. But in this case Linden had the ring upon leaving the Land which is not consistent with how she went in. Has this been discussed and have I missed something? Does this in turn say something about its ownership? Or maybe I am just having a Friday...

One factor is simple psychology. Despite the fact that Covenant gave her the ring, and she treasured it for that reason, she still thought of it as "Covenant's ring". Perhaps she only meant "my ring that Covenant gave me" initially, but over time these things wear in.

The second reason is that both Kevin's Dirt and Esmer have conspired to prevent Linden from using the ring. And she had no idea that these external forces were interfering with her. What was left but for doubt to creep in. The ring wasn't working ... maybe the ring wasn't really meant for her.

There's another reason that's been discussed before. I don't think it has ever occurred to Linden, but it has to members of the Watch. And that is: if Covenant gave his ring to Foul, isn't it Foul's ring? Can he take it back and give it to Linden?

AjK wrote:... but in WGW didn't Linden return to our world from the Land not in possession (pardon the expression ) of TC's ring? That is consistent (as usual) with the fact that the circumstances of a person's coming to and returning from the Land are the same.

Linden was in possession of the ring when she left the Land.

When she awoke again in the "real world", the ring was in her hand.

Miracle? Magic? Inconsistency? Explained away by unconscious groping? That's been debated in other threads.

wayfriend wrote:if Covenant gave his ring to Foul, isn't it Foul's ring? Can he take it back and give it to Linden?

My two scents (and neither one is pleasant ) is that TC didn't give the ring to LF in the sense of transferring ownership (although that was certainly LF desire.) I believe he just put it into his hand in order for the necessary events to play out as needed. In others words, regarding the physical transfer of the object it was the intent that made all the difference. It was still TC's to give to Linden.

wayfriend wrote:Linden was in possession of the ring when she left the Land.

When she awoke again in the "real world", the ring was in her hand.

Miracle? Magic? Inconsistency? Explained away by unconscious groping? That's been debated in other threads.

Thanks, wayfriend. Chalk up another one to hazy memory. Out of interest I will look harder for the other threads this weekend. Although off the cuff I have a hard time with the unconscious groping angle. Thanks again...

AjK wrote:I can't comment on her questioning the ownership (her versus Roger), but I can say that my distinct impression was that TC gave her the ring in the Land.

However, that just made me think of something. I don't mean to side track DotD's nice thread here but I am confused. I will have to check the book when I get home tonight, but in WGW didn't Linden return to our world from the Land not in possession (pardon the expression ) of TC's ring? That is consistent (as usual) with the fact that the circumstances of a person's coming to and returning from the Land are the same. TC always shaves, gets equivalent injuries, et cetera just prior to going back to the "real" world. But in this case Linden had the ring upon leaving the Land which is not consistent with how she went in. Has this been discussed and have I missed something? Does this in turn say something about its ownership? Or maybe I am just having a Friday...

This question was brought up on the GI. The GI can be difficult to search, so I'll risk my poor memory of SRD's answer and say that according to him Linden took the ring from TC's finger after she translated back to the "real" world. I also recall him stating that he thought it was always understood that she took it at that time.

On the other hand, mysterious things do happen in the "real" world, such as Joan's shackles mysteriously falling off while she lay in the hospital bed. This was even caught on video tape, so it seems that they just fall off.

So much time has gone by since SRD wrote the Second Chronicles that I don't think he really remembers himself why he wrote everything he wrote. And he has admitted to at least one inconsistency between the Second and Last Chronicles regarding the explanation of why the Worm reacted defensively at the Isle of the One Tree.

But when such mysteries occur with the ring transferring to Linden's hand, the shackles falling off Joan, or TC's miraculous revival at the end of the First Chronicles, the solution remains ambiguous.

I always have this "ambiguity thesis" working for me, you see. Like UFO phenomena, they remain unexplained and unexplainable. We in the "real" world will never know if it was an alien spaceship sighting or some mundane phenomenon. Perhaps with Joan's shackles the video recording was turned off and the time-stamp manipulated to make it appear that the shackles just fell off; that would be a mundane explanation, and it was the solution to one detective story that I read a long time ago. But in the cases mentioned, we don't know that answers and it looks like we'll never know.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Like UFO phenomena, they remain unexplained and unexplainable.

<snip>

But in the cases mentioned, we don't know that answers and it looks like we'll never know.

I am completely fine with that.

AjK wrote:

wayfriend wrote:if Covenant gave his ring to Foul, isn't it Foul's ring? Can he take it back and give it to Linden?

My two scents (and neither one is pleasant ) is that TC didn't give the ring to LF in the sense of transferring ownership (although that was certainly LF desire.)

Smelling that, I would have to respond by saying the whole point of the first six books was for Foul to gain nothing less than a transfer of ownership. Foul manipulated events until Covenant gave him the ring; he could have stolen it in any number of ways. Foul predicted, "Of your own volition you will give the white gold into my hand," and it came to pass just so.

SRD always gives away the store.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:SRD always gives away the store.

Always. Check out this quote from Runes.

In [u]The Runes of the Earth[/u] was wrote:Hurtloam would restore them, of course. Or the Staff of Law. In this time and place, she might as well have asked for Covenant's resurrection.

And here's some quotes from TIW, *before* anyone reached Skyweir and got Bannor to spill the beans.

In [u]The Illearth War[/u] was wrote:"Come on," Troy said. His tone was full of the power of command. "The Lords are doing something you ought to see."

She recognized the potential value of his tactical skill, put faith in it; she gave his voice the power of command.

The ponderous movement of Lord Foul's hordes continued as before, and at the sight he felt a resurgence of panic. But he held onto his power of command, gripped it to keep his shame at bay.

Ain't that interesting? Little nuggets of gold, scattered about, unnoticed by mere mortal readers.

The quotes from the first Chronicles I was aware of since my second reading. Yes, it was a moment to reflect when I came upon those passages the second time around!

The one from Runes is new to me and very, very interesting.

Or the one in FR where Roger-as-Covenant does some magical thing with a wave of the hand, then he looks at it "as if it belonged to someone else". One of the features I love about the Chrons is that the books are so different on a second reading. There's a lot of those "ah-ha" moments.

I think it ties in to 2 things...1: the Elohim mentioned that a power given is far different from a power wrested, referring to taking the ring from TC. Thus, Foul HAD to engineer it so Covenant would hand it over. 2. All expressions of Power are themselves expressions of the wielder. I believe this was referenced with Linden having difficulty using the wild magic in the caesure.