Kevin's Watch

Yep. I'm gonna start another one cause the others never really answered th logical cusp of the issue. Maybe I missed the right post, but I looked for a while.

So here my goes:

If Cov, once having learned that E was his daughter, refused his natural attraction to this older, beautiful, stronger, charismatic and flirtatious woman, having been conceived from his point of view two weeks prior,

AND

If E is indeed a little "off", crazy or insane, because of the Ranyhyn Ritual, god worship of her father/savior, or her mother's insanity and obsessions passed down through environment,

THEN

Who really is at fault?

My Answer so far:

The Council...

They elected her as High Lord instead of Mhoram or Osandrea. They have the mind-meld, so they should have been aware of something wrong with her deep down, should have been aware of the potential based on who she is and her Ranyhyn dealings, which could work both ways, and Mhoram may have been able to forsee issues also.

Anyone else?

SRD addresses some of your question in the Gradual Interview.

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:2.) How is it that the other Lords, including Mhoram who was seer and oracle, had no indication of her insanity? Why did even mind melds between the counsel fail to indicate her flaw? A mutual decision was made that she possessed the qualities necessary to face the challenges of the upcoming war; how could they have been so wrong?

• 2) The Lords who selected Elena to lead them were not "so wrong." This is a novel about paradox, remember. Elena was the perfect choice in the same sense that Covenant was the perfect choice. So she was discernibly unbalanced. So what? So was he. The other Lords--especially Mhoram--knew that she would (to borrow a phrase) "save or damn" the Land; and they chose to believe that she would save it, just as they chose to believe that Covenant would. None of them existed on the knife-edge of possibility in the same way that Elena--and Covenant--did. And they could so easily have been validated by the outcome, if she had simply made a different decision at the moment when she tasted the EarthBlood. Only characters with epic flaws are capable of epic victories. So I would argue that the issue isn't that the other Lords "had no indication of her insanity": they simply didn't think in those terms. They didn't ask, "Is she sane?" but rather, "Is she capable?" And in those terms, they made the best possible choice.
  
  (02/05/2005)

So, in Donaldson's view, the Council didn't do anything wrong in selecting Elena as high lord. It was, in fact, "the best possible choice."

Of course, that does't mean it's not "their fault".

Then again, I'm not sure what it is that your trying to find the faulty party for.

... Whose fault is it that Elena was unbalanced?

... Whose fault is it that Elena was High Lord?

... Whose fault is it that the Law of Death was broken?

If it's the first one, I can only say, does it have to be anyone's fault?

Fault is the wrong word. Responsibility can be deduced by following the crumbs...backwards.

I'm just looking to tie in all the loose threads I see in the first tril.

K.

If Cov rapes the Land in raping Lena, and then the thing with Elena stretches the middle...is there a third scene that would finish the pattern and have Cov getting humped, at least in some direct form as a 360 comeeround/comupence in PTP?

Hi jacob Raver, sinTempter! I must have missed you when you joined the forum. Welcome to KW!

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:If Cov, once having learned that E was his daughter, refused his natural attraction to this older, beautiful, stronger, charismatic and flirtatious woman, having been conceived from his point of view two weeks prior, ...

Are you saying that her flirting with him was an indicator that she might not have been the type of person who should be a High Lord? Sorry for not following you on this one.

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Who really is at fault?

At fault for what, her getting into the position where she drank the Earthblood and brought Kevin back (and the associated ramifications)?

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:...they should have been aware of something wrong with her deep down, should have been aware of the potential based on who she is and her Ranyhyn dealings, which could work both ways, and Mhoram may have been able to forsee issues also.

Perhap potential works both ways. A person with very very strong potential for "good" and "bad" may be worth the risk. I feel that Mhoram may have thought that way. Kinda like an extreme example of truly creative or artistic people frequently being very quirky. There were several cases where good (and "extreme potential") people didn't have things work out too well for them. One obvious example besides Elena was High Lord Kevin. I understand that your point may be that Kevin, unlike Elena, did not have the same indicators that he may be a "little off". My point is just that someone who is a "little off" may save the world while someone (like Kevin) who seems intact may desecrate it. Maybe I'll stick with the cliche that you can't judge a book by its cover.

Nice to "meet" you!

Same to you.

I joined 1 1/2 yrs ago and haven't been active for about a year...just started on 1st tril again...got back into it.

As far as Elena:

I see that incest is a constant in antiquitus fantasy, which could be one reason SRD had Elena so hot for Cov, but SRD said that it was merely a way to show Elena's slight craziness (in the grad. int).

One of the key themes of the books is personal responsibility and the weight of ones actions. If I knew that an employee of mine had some issues but could be brilliant I would be VERY hesitant, if not outright against, promoting her. Now the situation in IW is that of hope, but amidst distress, and maybe promoting the person with the biggest reward might be the thing to do, much like signing Moss or Owens in the NFL...but like those two, it's hit or miss, highs and lows.

Each primary character in the books eventually makes a mistake that affects another character in a negative way, except maybe FF, and it is important to me to understand where the ultimate responsibility lies for major mistakes in the overall story that while making it possible for Cov to realize what the opposite of Despite is, and also realize his need for it, really are terrible in consequence.

'Is all...

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:I joined 1 1/2 yrs ago and haven't been active for about a year

Ooops, sorry. I looked at the month but not close enough at the year!

ahh, yah, lol, close.

Cool pic, AjK.

And Wayfriend too.

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Yep. I'm gonna start another one cause the others never really answered th logical cusp of the issue. Maybe I missed the right post, but I looked for a while.

So here my goes:

If Cov, once having learned that E was his daughter, refused his natural attraction to this older, beautiful, stronger, charismatic and flirtatious woman, having been conceived from his point of view two weeks prior,

AND

If E is indeed a little "off", crazy or insane, because of the Ranyhyn Ritual, god worship of her father/savior, or her mother's insanity and obsessions passed down through environment,

THEN

Who really is at fault?

My Answer so far:

The Council...

They elected her as High Lord instead of Mhoram or Osandrea. They have the mind-meld, so they should have been aware of something wrong with her deep down, should have been aware of the potential based on who she is and her Ranyhyn dealings, which could work both ways, and Mhoram may have been able to forsee issues also.

Anyone else?

The Council did not have a psychiatrist on staff at Revelstone. The Lords did not feel any wrongness coming from Elena. The New Lords, at any rate, are not terribly smart, they're n00bs.

Yeah they are.

Except, the Old Lords didn't have the mind-meld, which I guess does leave it up to the n00bs to learn, so that could explain why they didn't perceive Elena's issues through it.

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Yeah they are.

Except, the Old Lords didn't have the mind-meld, which I guess does leave it up to the n00bs to learn, so that could explain why they didn't perceive Elena's issues through it.

The New Lords don't seem very perceptive regarding "issues" especially in times of emergency or war unless they are moral issues. They take note of character and strength of will (as well as ability). They're not the army recruiters trying to weed out any homosexuals trying to join up. Elena is not stark raving mad and she doesn't beat small puppies to death with her staff. And remember the Ranyhyn horse rite.

I don't think that they failed to perceive Elena's issues, I think that they perceived them and chose her anyway. I think that they were faced with a war and decided to go with a leader that probably wouldn't make the same old decisions that the rest of them would - a leader that because of their "unique" way of looking at the world, would think outside the box, to use a non-Land phrase. Choosing Hile Triy as Warmark demonstrates a similar philosophy in my opinion.

Elena was Covenant's daughter, and the Ranyhyn and chosen to serve her despite their misgivings, and she didn't turn out so bad considering how screwed up Lena and Atiaran and Trell and Triock must have been. Sure she fell in love with her father, but I think she loved the idea of him as the white-gold wielder more than she loved him as a man.

Besides, you can't expect the Council to foresee every symptom of Elena's madness, and it's outcome. It's likely that during a mind-meld that her love was seen as admiration, or as a daughter's love for her father.

variol son wrote:Sure she fell in love with her father, but I think she loved the idea of him as the white-gold wielder more than she loved him as a man. ... It's likely that during a mind-meld that her love was seen as admiration, or as a daughter's love for her father.

Interestingly put! I think that her feelings (including those of love) at least for her transcended many things including their biological relationship. In others words I don't believe that she ever thought "I know he is my father but...". I just don't think she thought in those terms. And personally I never thought that her calling TC "Beloved" was referring to romantic/physical love. It went beyond that.

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Cool pic, AjK.

As those of you near my age (who, like me, may or may not have had grand social lives in the 80's ) may know, it is a screen shot from the arcade game Rastan Saga, a game that I loved back in the day and still play on MAME, truth be told. Well, cool or not it is certainly better than the childhood pictures of myself that I had been using. I suspect that if I didn't stop I would have driven potential new KW members away.

variol son wrote:I don't think that they failed to perceive Elena's issues, I think that they perceived them and chose her anyway.

It's easy to see an analogy with TC himself there, being named ur-Lord despite everything. But they can't perceive anything in TC because he is closed to them; and in Elena, who is not closed to them, they apparently don't perceive wrongness. Nor has Elena raped anybody or beaten small puppies to death with her staff as far as they know. So I really don't see the issues you're all talking about.

*shrug* I just used the word because it had been used previously. I tend to agree that there weren't actually any "issues" as such to perceive - I doubt the belief that in death Landwaster had somehow gained the power to defeat the Despiser was held by her alone, and any obsession with Covenant would make sense to the Council who would have known that she was his daughter.

variol son wrote:*shrug* I just used the word because it had been used previously. I tend to agree that there weren't actually any "issues" as such to perceive - I doubt the belief that in death Landwaster had somehow gained the power to defeat the Despiser was held by her alone, and any obsession with Covenant would make sense to the Council who would have known that she was his daughter.

I don't know that Elena had shown any issues before TC returned to the Land in TIW. If there were any, then whatever they were, they must have been minor compared to her strengths.

Fair 'nuff.

Guess my Christian morals can't get past the incestual desire of Elena.

Or morals in general - most of us are pretty freaked out by that sort of thing.

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Fair 'nuff.

Guess my Christian morals can't get past the incestual desire of Elena.

The GI question deals with Elena's "insanity." As I recall, SRD stated that Elena was not insane until just before her fall.

But we're talking about issues, not insanity.

The device of using incest, which involved events after TC was in the Land, was SRD's way of cluing in the reader as to her mind set.

Since nobody in the Land is Christian we don't know what their morals are concerning incest. As far as we know, Land-dwellers may all be ignorant inbreds.

Mmm, yummy.

anyway ...

Isn't the answer, It's Covenant's fault? The author's intent was to make the consequences of Lena's rape snowball into a series of events which threatened the Land and played into Foul's hands. And that Covenant would have to face his culpability in the dangers he unleashed, and then strive to redeem himself, in order to resolve his personal crisis.