Kevin's Watch

I know one of the unwritten rules here is that you don't question SRD's choices in his writings, but this is probably my most emotional disappointment and I'm just wondering if anyone else had felt the same way:

I was devastated when we learned from Manthrall Rue that a Giant was Raving in IW. I was with HT when Tull appeared, nervous that our plan was screwed because the Giants were also.

But I wished with all my heart that SRD had built up the suspense and waited to make me, the reader, aware of the Giant Raver, maybe through HT's sight at Kevin's Watch.

I think the moment would have far more impact if it happened as the story progressed, SRD "showing" it instead of just "telling" during the war council.

I don't tend to question SRD's storyline too much, but it might have been interesting if he had Manthrall Rue tell the story in order to deliver key information to move the story along, but had her be so shocked that she was unable to tell that a Giant had been possessed by a Raver. That shock could have been delivered later to an interesting effect. But in the end I have no complaints and was not dissappointed in the way it was told.

I think it would be equally shocking either way.

However, your alternative would require the Lords spending a long time wondering why a Giant was leading Foul's armies. This would probably lead down narrative paths the author didn't want to travel, nor suspiciously avoid.

Also, wasn't the mission to Seareach launched in part in response to learning of the Giant Raver? It provides a real good excuse for sending the mission exactly when they did.

What I liked about having Manethrall Rue mention the Giant-Raver was that it helped create a great sense of dread and anticipation about the looming war. Dread that a Giant could be possessed by a Raver; and anticipation over how the Lords and Troy would deal with such a being armed with the power of the Illearth Stone. By being "off-screen" initially in the story, Fleshharrower was made fearsome in my mind before I ever saw him, um, in the flesh.

matrixman wrote:What I liked about having Manethrall Rue mention the Giant-Raver was that it helped create a great sense of dread and anticipation about the looming war. Dread that a Giant could be possessed by a Raver; and anticipation over how the Lords and Troy would deal with such a being armed with the power of the Illearth Stone. By being "off-screen" initially in the story, Fleshharrower was made fearsome in my mind before I ever saw him, um, in the flesh.

wayfriend: Why would the Lord's necessarily know that a Giant was commanding the army, General's don't usually lead their armies during the body of an march do they? So what if Rue left immediately after seeing troops leaving the Shattered Hills, not seeing the Giant?

matrixman: Great point. But isn't it enough to know that Foul has the Illearth Stone? Much like Drool having the Staff in LFB?

Yeah, but I think that both for the characters and the reader that the threat of the Illearth Stone is a little vague. Sure, Foul has the Stone, but what can he actually do with it? We already know however that Giants should be immune to Raver possession, so this way we have both the shock of hearing that there is a Giant Raver and the dread of not knowing how Foul achieved this feat (one of the Lords says during the war council that the Stone alone would not suffice).

Also, the reaction of Revelstone's inhabitants to Manethrall Rue's news gave SRD a chance to stress how emotionally and mentally unready the people of the Land really were for such a war.

Yeah, but if one of the Lords knows enough about the stone to say that it would not suffice alone, wouldn't that knowledge make the threat very potent to the Lords?

For the reader though, not so much. I see your point.

variol son wrote:Also, the reaction of Revelstone's inhabitants to Manethrall Rue's news gave SRD a chance to stress how emotionally and mentally unready the people of the Land really were for such a war.

Well said! I agree.

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote: But isn't it enough to know that Foul has the Illearth Stone? Much like Drool having the Staff in LFB?

For me, being told that Drool had the Staff in LFB wasn't as ominous as being told that a Giant-Raver had a fragment of the Illearth Stone in TIW. Because in LFB, being the first book, I was still orientating myself to what was going on. Drool Rockworm as well as many other creatures and powers in the Land were, at that early point, still unknown quantities to me. I knew little of the abilities of a Cavewight, and I did not know the capabilities of the Staff. Without a fuller sense of the nature of the powers I was introduced to, the fact that this creature had this staff didn't have that big a "scare factor" - not until we actually met Drool face-to-face. Whereas, by TIW, I knew the Land better, and the forces at play in that arena. By then I had become more familiar with the nature of Ravers, as well as with the nature of Giants. So knowing that made Manethrall Rue's revelation about a Giant-Raver instantly dreadful and repulsive without needing to "see" Fleshharrower in the picture at that point.

In any case, I was satisfied with how SRD told the story of TIW, so I don't feel a strong urge to second guess him on plot points like these.

I agree with MM and VS.

If Rue hadn't seen the Giant, then the mission to Seareach would not have been quite what it was. The Giants would have been only missing; they would not have been potentially traitorous. So less suspense. The whole Hoerkin scene would not have been as dramatic, for that matter.

An important component of the First C's is Foul perverting the good. Learning it earlier provides more opportunity to explorer that aspect.

I rushed my post because I had to get off the computer, but it looks like I managed to say what I wanted without tripping over myself. Just wanted to add that Drool was more pathetic than scary to me, anyway. But a Giant-Raver! That's BAD.

I just remembered that we actually met Drool very early in LFB. So he was pitiful to me right from the start! Really, it was hard to take Drool seriously as a threat to the Lords and the Land, despite his, um, vulgar displays of power with the Staff. Drool was just a sad, deluded creature who was out of his league.

By comparison, the mere thought of a Giant-Raver was enough to induce terror, which was what happened when Manethrall Rue spilled the news.

I like it the way it is. It scared the pants of everyone in the war council, and created a heated argument, even leading people to suggest Rue was herself either Lying or Raving.. Creating tension between the Lords and the Ramen.. I think it was great how it was..

Show, don't Tell, is the first rule of fight clu...er, story writing. But, it does create the tension for the rest of the dizzle. But, it just kind of feel's like cheating.

Also, wasn't the mission to Seareach launched in part in response to learning of the Giant Raver?

Korik's Mission leaves Revelstone prior to the arrival of Manethrall Rue and was triggered by the lengthy silence from Seareach combined with Mhoram's vision of their approaching doom. Of course, that doom was veiled from Mhoram's perception and remained undefined until Rue's disclosure at the war council...another subtlety in Foul's manipulations.

I like the way the story was told just fine as is...besides, the secret would have been spilled during Tull's Tale anyway, so HT's view from the Watch would still have been as it is now - confirmation only rather than revelation.

Why not have the scouts that are already in the east like Rue go ahead a little north and check it out, instead of sending a whole nother group all the way from Revelstone?

Because it had already been established that normal scouts couldn't cross the Sarangrave. It had to be Bloodguard and Ranyhyn.

How bout the Giant Woods or the Great Swamp?

As far as I can tell, Lifeswallower and the Sarangrave had a a fairly symbiotic relationship, and since the Lurker of the Sarangrave lived in Defiles Coarse, I'd say that the Great Swamp was just as dangerous. As for Giant Woods, I think you'd have to cross Lifeswallower and the Sarangrave to get there from the south, and going round would take a pretty long time.

Also, how would scouts who weren't at Revelstone know that they should go to Seareach? The Council only sent the mission because of Mhoram's vision, which occurred before the Council received the lillianril communication rods from the Loresraat.

Good point.

variol son wrote:Because it had already been established that normal scouts couldn't cross the Sarangrave. It had to be Bloodguard and Ranyhyn.

True; according to Mhoram's vision, Ranyhyn-borne riders were required for the mission.

This has been a stimulating thread, sorry I'm so late to the discussion.

There's another important aspect to having Rue tell the Council about the Giant, and that is the immediate negative response of the Council and Morin's accusation to Rue ("Do you rave?") Think back - the Ramen historically hate the Bloodguard for riding the Ranyhyn into battle, but the Bloodguard don't reciprocate that hate. In fact, the Bloodguard have a grudging respect for the Ramen for their various skills. But here we have a First Mark openly accusing a Ramen Manethrall of being an enemy of the Land.

This led to the Manethrall finding within herself the strength to stand against this sudden scorn, and also an opportunity for Covenant to defend her ("Hellfire! Can't you see she's telling the truth?") And, this of course takes us to their private conversation, in which Rue tells Covenant that the Ranyhyn still wait to serve him.

I would think that she was being accused of despair or mental weakness, not being an enemy.

Why would the Ramen hate the Bloodguard but not the Lords?

I guess because SRD never spent a wholemuch time on the Ramen I don't really care what Rue goes through. Meh.

The one thing SRD never seems to bring to his stories is plot driven suspense.