Kevin's Watch

Covenant, once summoned, stays in the Land until his summoner dies, then he returns to his world. How can Hile Troy remain in the Land after his summoner (Atiaran) has died? Since he is in the Land, he can never be returned, since his summoner can now never die, and how is it that Covenant never sees this discrepancy (or have I missed it)? As that is the most obvious reason for the two of them to view their behavior in the Land to have very different consequences. Hile never has to consider any aspect of the things that are Covenant's preoccupation.

As far as I recall, Hile Troy remained in the Land because his summoner died in the act of summoning him. Will have to dig out The Illearth War and check though.

Yes, that's true. Also, Atiaran obviously used a different spell to summon Troy (even though she was trying to summon Covenant) than what was used to summon Covenant. Another variable was that Covenant was the white gold.

Lots of variables means anything's possible.

Welcome to the Watch, Zortag.

One possiblity: People in the "real world" generally must be near death to be summoned without a lot of work - especially without the Staff.

I suspect if the person dies in the real world, they (their soul/essence/katra?) will remain in the Land for eternity.

Wasn't Troy falling out the window of a burning building or some such at the time of his summons? My guess is he died in the real world.

Or, HT isn't real and the POV was really made up by Cov's subconscious.

Donaldson has answered this question a few times.

According to Donaldson, Troy got to stay, not because his summoner died during his summonsing, but because he himself died while he was in the Land. He died in the fire shortly after he came to the Land.

In the Second Chronicles, Covenant got the same free ticket. He died in the real world, and so got to remain in the Land.

In the Gradual Interview, Donaldson wrote:In the most literal sense, death in the "real world" for a character like Hile Troy, or Thomas Covenant, simply means that character can no longer return to his/her "real" life. But of course the implications go much farther (and are explored more fully in "The Last Chronicles"). Literal death in the Land as well is a significant possibility. But neither Troy nor Covenant actually died in the Land: rather they were transformed; became beings of an entirely different kind. In Troy's case, a series of transformations were involved, resulting in a new Forestal. In Covenant's case, the destruction of his mortality freed his spirit to support the Arch of Time (the fact that he retains some form of sentient identity is demonstrated by his ability to speak to Linden during her translation back to her "real" life). In both cases, huge powers were required to cause transformation instead of literal death. So: literal death in the "real world" does not *necessarily* impose extinction in the Land. In the "real world," Troy's body suffered literal death not long after his accident.

(11/21/2004)

(Personally, I think the possibility of "transformation" ties to the Land being "more real" than Covenant's world. Things are "bigger" in the Land. So when you die in the real world, you are no longer constrained by it, and you may become "bigger" and perhaps "more real".)

One other note: at one point in the GI, Donaldson seems to hint that you can't die in the Land if you're alive in the real world. I'll try to track that down.

HT remained in the Land because he died in the "real" world.

Hi Zortag - I've just finished reading the Illearth War and have been wondering about Troy's summons. If Triock helped Atairan to summon Troy then he was also Troy's summoner. But when Triock dies Troy has already become a disciple of Caerriol Wildwood. This could be one of the 'transformations' Wayfriend highlighted in his post.

Interesting GI quote about transformations. They also still have some consistency with the "real world" deaths though, with TC getting stabbed in the chest by LF and HT (as a Forestal) becoming a charred stump (reminiscent of burning in fire) after getting Krill'ed.