Kevin's Watch

It just occured to me that maybe the reason for the Theomach becoming the guardian of the one tree was so that be could manipulate the consequences of rousing the worm.

In Fatal Revenant, I think Infelice mentions that of all the insequent, only the theomach was capable of affecting their wurd - through meddling at the one tree. Could it be possible that the Theomach predicted Linden's actions at the end of the book? Infelice saying that the waking of the worm leads not to the destruction of the world, but the consumption of all the elohim seems to hint that something's changed since the last time the worm was disturbed.

It seems to me that the Theomach might have meddled enough with the very nature of the worm of the world's end, that eating every elohim will be sufficient to put it back to sleep again - meaning that he will be responsible for the end of their race, justifying his position as the greatest of all the insequent.

Just a thought I had whilst browsing the forum, thought i'd put it out there!
Who knows, maybe the new brinn-theomach will pop up at the start of AATE and start rounding up all the elohim shepherd-style and funnel them into the worm's belly.

Excellent post!
Good idea.

RE: your second paragraph.

From my reading of WGW, I understood the Elohim to be implying that they would be consumed with the destruction of the Earth when the Worm is awakened. Here is a quote:

Findail's gaze held Linden. When her wide eyes went back to his, he replied, "This Despiser is not mad. Should be rouse the Worm himself, without the wild magic in his hand, would he not also be consumed in the destruction of the world?"

While I'm sure the idea of the Elohim actually being consumed is pleasing to many of us, I don't see anything more than an appetizer for the Worm in that.

I wonder what recipes the worm is going to create with his food sourse?

Elohim burgers.
Elohim Patté.
Soup??

martyc wrote:In Fatal Revenant, I think Infelice mentions that of all the insequent, only the theomach was capable of affecting their wurd - through meddling at the one tree.

Actually, Infelice says, "Yet among them, only the Theomach has achieved an effect upon the fate of the Earth."

I had assumed on reading this that this refers to the Theomach's past actions - the effect being the events occuring when Covenant went to the Isle of the One Tree.

But this doesn't rule out further actions, does it?

But has the Theomach demonstrated anything that hints at an ability to do anything about the Worm? I don't see anything except, in battling the Guardian, one makes the Worm restive.

By analogy, perhaps putting the Guardian's feet up and giving him a good back rub will sooth the Worm.

On the other hand, in the GI, Donaldson, who is normally exceptionally chary of spoiling his own future books, says

Spoiler

"The Theomach is gone from the story, so it's at least theoretically safe to talk about him."

Now, either that totally rains wet blankets on your theory. Or Donaldson is being the kind of sneaky underhanded GI question answerer that we know him to be. Because he can argue that the Guardian is not the Theomach exactly.

In The One Tree, I think it's FIndail, mentions that the Wurm was not made restive by Berek's approach, because tehre was no fighting as it HAD no guardian then. something like "Berek himself gave the tree it's guardian"...except in FR doesn't the Mahdoubt SAY that the Theomach defeated the Elohim guardian? *Shrug*

Seven Words wrote:In The One Tree, I think it's FIndail, mentions that the Wurm was not made restive by Berek's approach, because tehre was no fighting as it HAD no guardian then. something like "Berek himself gave the tree it's guardian"...except in FR doesn't the Mahdoubt SAY that the Theomach defeated the Elohim guardian? *Shrug*

I trust SRD to explain that contradiction somehow.
I think it will all be explained in the *WAY* the Theomach "defeats" the Elohim.
Was it a hand to hand battle with an Elohim?
I don't think so.
This series is all about knowledge, who has it and how they use it.

That is some interesting stuff, Martyrc. After all, Brinn defeated Theo...but it doesn't say killed (the haruchai are always tossing each other down to decide things without anyone dying). And so far, I don't think we've seen any Insequent destroyed except through opposing each other [and then it seems the winner loses].
And HLT has something with the knowledge point, I think. If the Elo. had a guardian, mightn't it have been more like one appointed (think Colossus-like, or even Findail/staff) rather than a warrior?

And Infelice is either lying or wrong: the Mahdoubt has twice taken actions that bear on the fate of the earth. [unless for some reason saving Linden, Staff, and Ring don't count for her]

What if the Theomach bound the Elohim to the One Tree somehow?

When Brinn defeated Ak-Haru, he and Ak-Haru became one person.

In [u]The One Tree [/u]was wrote:He was saying, "You're not Brinn." Lunatic with distance and detachment. "Are you?" His throat would not accept that other name.

Brinn's expression did not waver. Perhaps there was a smile in his eyes; it was difficult to see in the early light. "I am who I am," he said evenly. "Ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol. The Guardian of the One Tree. Brinn of the Haruchai. And many other names. Thus am I renewed from age to age, until the end."

So if the Theomach defeated the first Guardian, it stands to reason that the Theomach and the first Guardian also became one.

So the Guardian would now be an Elohim, an Insequent, and a Haruchai all in one!

wayfriend wrote:When Brinn defeated Ak-Haru, he and Ak-Haru became one person.

In [u]The One Tree [/u]was wrote:He was saying, "You're not Brinn." Lunatic with distance and detachment. "Are you?" His throat would not accept that other name.

Brinn's expression did not waver. Perhaps there was a smile in his eyes; it was difficult to see in the early light. "I am who I am," he said evenly. "Ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol. The Guardian of the One Tree. Brinn of the Haruchai. And many other names. Thus am I renewed from age to age, until the end."

So if the Theomach defeated the first Guardian, it stands to reason that the Theomach and the first Guardian also became one.

So the Guardian would now be an Elohim, an Insequent, and a Haruchai all in one!

Ohhh...I forgot about that...a representative of the most earth-powerful, most knowledgeable, and the purest warrior, all rolled into one...YIKES!

Maybe, just maybe, when Esmer said 'because of the Haruchai, there will be endless havoc' or whatever, he actually meant this elohim-insequent-haruchai hybrid is gonna bring in a lot of trouble? I mean pure earthpower and lore isn't much of a threat since it has no reason for action, but add in the unbridled passion of the haruchai and you could have someone much more proactive and unreasonable.....

Welcome to the Watch, marty.

martyc wrote:In Fatal Revenant, I think Infelice mentions that of all the insequent, only the theomach was capable of affecting their wurd - through meddling at the one tree. Could it be possible that the Theomach predicted Linden's actions at the end of the book? Infelice saying that the waking of the worm leads not to the destruction of the world, but the consumption of all the elohim seems to hint that something's changed since the last time the worm was disturbed.

I wouldn't be surprised if Infelice only meant that, if the Earth is destroyed, the Elohim would be, too; and that, in their own eyes, the loss of the Elohim is so much more important that the destruction of the Earth isn't worth mentioning.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

Seven Words wrote:In The One Tree, I think it's FIndail, mentions that the Wurm was not made restive by Berek's approach, because tehre was no fighting as it HAD no guardian then. something like "Berek himself gave the tree it's guardian"...except in FR doesn't the Mahdoubt SAY that the Theomach defeated the Elohim guardian? *Shrug*

I trust SRD to explain that contradiction somehow.
I think it will all be explained in the *WAY* the Theomach "defeats" the Elohim.
Was it a hand to hand battle with an Elohim?
I don't think so.
This series is all about knowledge, who has it and how they use it.

IIRC, somewhere in the GI, SRD flat-out admitted he messed up with this. He said something along the lines of, "Nothing I can do about it now. It's not like I'm allowed to go back and rewrite WGW so Findail doesn't say that.

martyc wrote:Maybe, just maybe, when Esmer said 'because of the Haruchai, there will be endless havoc' or whatever, he actually meant this elohim-insequent-haruchai hybrid is gonna bring in a lot of trouble?

Yep. That's what I think, too.

This was just posted in the GI today.

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:Jim: Dear Stephen,

I have a question regarding the Insequent. I read through all the previous Insequent questions on the GI, and this doesn't seem to be covered. You mentioned that the Insequent's powers are acquired rather than innate. So my question is: do you "become" Insequent, as opposed to the Insequent being a "race" or separate type of being. For example, once Brinn defeated the Theomach to become the guardian, did Brinn become an Insequent?

Thank you and I look for to AATE.

• As I see them, the Insequent are a race. And like all the races current in "The Chronicles" (Giants, Haruchai, Ramen, Ranyhyn, Elohim, whatever), they have very specific characteristics which distinguish them absolutely from other races. When the Theomach defeated the former Guardian of the One Tree, he did not thereby become Elohim.
  
  (02/19/2009)

At first, this seems to shed doubt on this theory of Guardian merging.

But then, if you think about it, you realize: Donaldson is confirming that what happened to Brinn vs the Theomach is similar to what happened to the Theomach vs the original Elohim Guardian. They are analagous situations.

So we got that part right!

I think our theory is substantiated. I think that we have a being who is derived from Elohim, Insequent, and Haruchai beings.

Donaldson is only saying such a being isn't an Elohim any longer. Nor an Insequent.

I don't understand why you're reading so much into SRD's reply. His answer states that individual's from races don't becomes other races. They don't have their race "upgraded" to a "higher" race, or something like that. Nor do races merge into other races. Maybe through interbreeding, but not through the mere act of mortal combat.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I don't understand why you're reading so much into SRD's reply.

When he was asked about Brinn becoming Insequent, he mentioned the Theomach becoming Elohim. So he has spontaneously confirmed that there is a parallel - what happened to the Theomach when he won is similar to what happened to Brinn when he one.

And we know what happened to Brinn when he won - he became Brinn and ak-Haru in one person. So the Theomach must have become the Theomach and the Elohim in one person.

Which is a theory I have had since I read FR in '07.

He's also saying that the result of this 'becoming one' is not an Insequent and is not an Elohim. It's something else. Which is good to know.

Since Brinn looked like Brinn, and not ak-Haru, I think it's a good guess that "physically" the new Guardian is Brinn, but "inside" he is both Brinn and ak-Haru and lots of other people. Which is what he said in TOT. So if SRD says, he's not an Insequent - that would be technically correct. Physically, he's still a Haruchai.

Similarly, when the Theomach defeated the Elohim, he remained physically an Insequent but has an Elohim "inside". Again, this matches SRDs answer above.

And THAT is critically important because here comes Thomas Covenant. Who is physically TC (in resurrected form) but (in my humber opinion) has a certain Despiser inside!

I feel sure that, among lots of other uses, the Guardian demonstrates a concept of "unity" that also applies to Covenant. We've discussed in other threads how there is an overarching theme of Covenant and Foul becoming one. The Guardian is another example of the same concept, I feel sure. As is Vain/Findail. As is Nom/Raver. As is Harrow consuming Linden and/or ur-viles.

This is big, big stuff.

And when SRD, also in the GI, says "The Theomach won't be in the story any more" -- you have to know, through a similar line of reason, that he may mean that the Guardian is technically not the Theomach any more, and the Guardian might very well show up in the story.

Which is why Esmer may very well be speaking of the Guardian when he speaks of "havoc!". If the Guardian isn't in the story any more, then he probably isn't.

Which makes sense. Why *add* all this info about the first Elohim Guardian -- contradicting events in TOT -- if it's not important for some reason. We certainly haven't seen the reason YET. So it must be coming!

How can you NOT get excited!!!!!!

After reading your long reply, let me just try again. You got all that confirmation out of SRD's statement, "When the Theomach defeated the former Guardian of the One Tree, he did not thereby become Elohim."

Jim, the original questioner, is obviously confusing the idea of acquiring magical abilities with acquiring a kind of magical stature, as if "Insequent" were synonymous with "magician."

SRD then used an example from one of his books, saying that merely defeating someone does not raise you to his level. The Theomach did not become elevated to a being of pure earthpower. He became something else: the Guardian of the One Tree.

Now exactly what that is, is another question not answered by SRD.

Perhaps the answer is not approachable to merely human intellects. We always think we can find all the answers, that is our basic assumption that we use throughout our lives. And it is wrong.

This reminds me of a scene from the movie Big Trouble in Little China -

Jack Burton: What is that stuff?
Egg Shen: Black blood of the earth.
Jack Burton: You mean oil?
Egg Shen: No, I mean black blood of the earth.

Sometimes the answers just can't get any more basic than that.

What I took from SRD's answer is that he was clarifying that a merger of Insequent and Elohim did not occur.

I see ak-Haru as the title that was merged and not racial status such as Insequent and Elohim. Similary when Brinn defeated ak-Haru he became ak-Haru (which isn't a race but a title, possibly with abilities??) and Brinn. So he is Brinn ak-Haru but he is still Haruchai and not Elohim and/or Insequent.

It even says in the glossary that "ak-Haru" is a supreme Haruchai honorific, correct?

theland.antgear.com/glossary.html