Kevin's Watch

The issue:

Revelstone happens half-way through the film/book. This is problematic for three main reasons,

1) There are something like eleven new characters introduced from here that will play a larger-than-small role somewhere down the line, and introducing characters this late in the game or later (Manthralls) is bad, bad, bad idea in film
2) There's three chapters there, and a verylot of exposition - slow time
3) Seems a verymuch copy of Fellowship plot-arch

What would you do?

I think Watchmen has helped Cov's chances in being made into a film with

Spoiler

Comedian's attempted rape, murder of baby-mama

helping set the stage for some toleration of rape and incestuous undertones...

...err, that didn't sound right, not toleration for rape, but for seeing it in a film and dealing with it while still watching further...

Using a narrator voice-over in real time as things progress would be the only way to successfully explain to the audience the things they need to be made aware of from the text, but without bogging down the story with excessive dialog. Example: When TC & Atiarian are traveling from Mithil Stonedown to Revelstone , and TC is thinking about everything that's going on. Have a narrator describe the complex stuff inside TC's head, while we simply see the two of them journying across breath-taking scenery. Compliment that with dialog from the text being spoken out loud. A good "sub-example" would be when TC begins becoming aware of his new health-sense, especially as he's looking at the Gilden Tree & "seeing" it for the first time, and having a quick conversation with Atirian about it. A proper combination of spoken dialog with voice-over narration would be the easiest, fastest way to "say everything to the audiance that needs to be said", but without screwing it up, or taking too much time to do it.

spoonchicken wrote:Using a narrator voice-over in real time as things progress would be the only way to successfully explain to the audience the things they need to be made aware of from the text, but without bogging down the story with excessive dialog. Example: When TC & Atiarian are traveling from Mithil Stonedown to Revelstone , and TC is thinking about everything that's going on. Have a narrator describe the complex stuff inside TC's head, while we simply see the two of them journying across breath-taking scenery. Compliment that with dialog from the text being spoken out loud. A good "sub-example" would be when TC begins becoming aware of his new health-sense, especially as he's looking at the Gilden Tree & "seeing" it for the first time, and having a quick conversation with Atirian about it. A proper combination of spoken dialog with voice-over narration would be the easiest, fastest way to "say everything to the audiance that needs to be said", but without screwing it up, or taking too much time to do it.

I would be afraid of the "Dune" effect...

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:

spoonchicken wrote:Using a narrator voice-over in real time as things progress would be the only way to successfully explain to the audience the things they need to be made aware of from the text, but without bogging down the story with excessive dialog. Example: When TC & Atiarian are traveling from Mithil Stonedown to Revelstone , and TC is thinking about everything that's going on. Have a narrator describe the complex stuff inside TC's head, while we simply see the two of them journying across breath-taking scenery. Compliment that with dialog from the text being spoken out loud. A good "sub-example" would be when TC begins becoming aware of his new health-sense, especially as he's looking at the Gilden Tree & "seeing" it for the first time, and having a quick conversation with Atirian about it. A proper combination of spoken dialog with voice-over narration would be the easiest, fastest way to "say everything to the audiance that needs to be said", but without screwing it up, or taking too much time to do it.

I would be afraid of the "Dune" effect...

Your point is very well taken, Jacob, and I agree. However, I really don't see a better option.

Well, even if we disagree, at least we're on the same side...

Edit:

Q: Would you cut, for time-constraints purposes:

a) Birniair
b) Variol and Tamarantha
c) All other Ramen 'cept Lithe
d) other

To get to Revelstone quicker, would it make more sense to cut Soaring Woodhelvin (maybe the test of truth could be done by Birinair at Revelstone) or the Celebration (Mithil Stonedown's group therapy session shows what's worth saving in the Land, so maybe the Wraiths could go)?

1) There are something like eleven new characters introduced from here that will play a larger-than-small role somewhere down the line, and introducing characters this late in the game or later (Manthralls) is bad, bad, bad idea in film

I'm not sure about that. If it was to be a trilogy of movies, and the length of LFB sits around 2 and half to 3 hours, then that would give us plenty of time to adjust to the augmented character set.

It's almost like a peek in the movie because we've heard much about Revelstone and the Lords - an hour and a half of build up might be just about right before we are introduced to the majesty of the Giant's stone work and the powerful presence of the lords.

2) There's three chapters there, and a verylot of exposition - slow time

It's been awhile since I've read it, but this sounds like the kind of material that's easier to relay with imagery and narration and thus edited for time.

3) Seems a verymuch copy of Fellowship plot-arch

Yeah, this is actually the part that bothers me most. In fact, the Woodhelvin are more difficult to defend from accusations of LOTR duplication. That they compliment the conceptual nature of the Stonedowners with wood, is the only real legitimate excuse for their existence. Even more disturbing is the forest crushing Foul's army in The Illearth War. Granted, Donaldson doesn't go into any graphic detail, but the movie would probably have to, and even if it didn't it would still imply an LOTR rip off.

Obviously I like Donaldson's story much better, but there really is a lot of fundamental structure that mirrors LOTR. The characters and their stories, plot, is what is so much better and stronger in the Covenant series, in my opinion. Unfortunately, I believe it would matter little to those who would watch and flippantly label it an LOTR remake.

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:I think Watchmen has helped Cov's chances in being made into a film with

Spoiler

Comedian's attempted rape, murder of baby-mama

helping set the stage for some toleration of rape and incestuous undertones...

...err, that didn't sound right, not toleration for rape, but for seeing it in a film and dealing with it while still watching further...

Gee, I don't think so. I don't think they were asking the audience to forgive the Comedian and root for him at all. Rape has been portrayed several times in the movies, but I can't think of one example where you are asked to feel anything other than distaste for the rapist. Then again, I haven't watched all the movies. But I suspect will be a pretty polarizing point in this movie. As, I think, it is with the books. There are a heap of people that have bowed out of finished the series because of this. I could see a lot of walkouts. So either it has to be handled with kid gloves (allude to something happening in the first parts of the movie, then bring it out after seeing the better side of Covenant) or lay it down right away and let the chips fall where they do. The thing about the kid gloves approach is that it gives it more meaning, where, although it is crucial to have it in there, the main story isn't about forgiving a rapist, and it would feel more like that with that approach. It a hard problem to square.
I do think audiences are more sophisticated these days, but for victims of rape, it might not be something you'd want to go to the theatre and see, and then be asked to forgive.

Ayup All...

I've read and followed for a while about the making/not making of the Chronicles but making it shouldn't be a big deal IMO. I appreciate Covenant's a complex character, full of Rage and self-Loathing, But aren't characters like Hamlet the same ?

TC I think, is unique because of his Crime against Lena, and how much it affects 'His' future and everyones in the Land. The only similarity between LOTR and this story I can see, is that it's a Quest (In the End) with a ring in it, and that's it...

I also reckon LFB should take about two hours Cinematically, or just shy of, to tell well. I think Atiarian could tell the story of the Land quite well, via Flashback, from leaving Mithil Stonedown to meeting Foamfollower, (an Important moment for me) and then the Climax of Revelstone itself and the Lords. Then the second hour-ish on the Quest to Mount Doom and out...

I think the 'right' Actor for the title role could be Brad Pitt (Yes !) This combined with a good script I think, would be the best way to convey him. Along with a curvy, hippy Blonde (yes) 'All American Girl' as Lena to reinforce the Outrage of the crime against her.

feanor wrote:Along with a curvy, hippy Blonde (yes) 'All American Girl' as Lena to reinforce the Outrage of the crime against her.

I always pictured her as a naive brunette myself, someone like Anna Kendrick for instance.

Ayup Rigel...

I have her pictured (costume and Hair) as the Actress who played opposite Rod Taylor in 'The Time Machine' (can't remember her name sorry) with a Kate winslet-type full figure... Alison Hannigan from Buffy ? *shrugs*

I agree with Jacob's original point (28 months after he made it !).

I love LFB, it has a peaceful beauty to it that the rest of the chronicles only hints at; it also moves languidly in places, a quality I've come to appreciate in the book (reading it is like a drink from a mountain stream).

Translating some of that pacing and structure to the movie screen would prove difficult though I'd imagine (oh how I would kill to have John Orloff explain what his ideas for a script entailed !)

As Jacob pointed out, the Revelstone chapters are a particularly tricky prospect; they move quite slowly, and there are a lot of characters introduced, some of whom on one hand are fairly superfluous to the story but on the other hand flesh-out the Land.
There is Vespers, which amounts to one long hymn/prayer/speech - it works as a lovely lament in the book but could amount to an overwrought monologue on screen imo.
There is some expository stuff among Prothal's words, but it could be condensed and delivered in a different context to streamline things.

The scenes with Covenant discovering the meaning of Bannor's Vow are awesome in print; but again, difficult to adapt I would think.
During is time at Revelstone, TC slowly coaxes out deeper truths about Bannor and his people - Bannor's revelation that he actually couldn't bear to still be serving the Lords after 500 years if he still had a wife to go home to is poignant and also shows TC's incisive mind at work; it plays out over 3 separate conversations from memory.
To streamline that stuff into one conversation just wouldn't work, part of it's success in SRD's story is that TC has to work Bannor over like a sleazy lawyer to find a chink in the Bloodguard's armour.
If it was edited too tightly the whole thing would lose it's impact, yet on screen it would be overlong.
One 'trick' would be to liven up some of Bannor's reminisces of his haruchai home among the Westron mountains with cut-aways/flashbacks

There are also two long meetings (on top of Vespers); one when TC delivers his message from Foul to the Lords, and then another when the Lords decide how to deal with this message.
Clearly a skilled scriptwriter could condense this stuff, but there is a lot of exposition to cover.
TC has to deliver his message and reveal his white gold ring.
The Lords, or someone, has to summarise their dilemma and articulate the stakes for the audience, as it is fairly complex (the whole fulfilling the prophecy of their Enemy in order to buy time among plenty of other stuff).
Also, it would be nice if Foamfollower could report his embassy from coerci; that a Giant had given birth to triplets and thus fulfilled Damelon Giantfriend's prophecy. The whole story arc of the downfall of the Giants is some of the strongest stuff in the chronicles; Hyrim and the Bloodguard's horrific encounter with Kinslaughterer at Seareach would look amazing on screen - this stuff resonates greater with the knowledge that Damelon's prophecy was misinterpreted so tragically. But I suppose you could get away without it


Ultimately I don't reckon the story can be told well enough in anything under approx. 3 hours.
A 3, maybe 4 part series would probably cover that book nicely, I'm with those who have advocated a series by someone like HBO or AMC as being the most desirable option for a TC adaptation.

Ayup All...

I agree with Sleeplessone, that LFB should be the film to 'Sell' the Land as a platform for the subsequent Films. I'd also stick to Atiaran doing the History of the Land in Flashback, with the Desecration of the Rite of Spring coming at the end to give us an idea of what 'Bad' is and to inject some Action and reason for urgency. (The opening rant of Drool should only be a precursor to that, IMO). 'Vespers' I admit is an Important part of describing the Land from the Lords POV, but I'd have Mhoram doing the Voiceover, and not Prothall, (he's not as Important as Mhoram is down the Line), and he could add a little about each Lord and their weaknesses. Foamfollower could do his prophecy voiceover (with a 'Flight' to Coercri showing a vibrant Giantish Community and the Giantish Births.) and Bannor and the Bloodguards History could be fitted in en route to Mount Doom maybe in a Campfire scene, with TC and him 'Getting off on the wrong foot'. TC could also fit in some of his own 'Gaps' there too.

Having seen some of HBOs output here in England on Satellite, I personally wouldn't let them near TC with TWO Bargepoles. Sorry, but just my opinion. But if it needed to be, I think screen time shouldn't be longer than the longest LOTR Movies.

With all the exposition necessary, they could always resort to what HBO did with Game of Thrones... throw in two naked women pleasuring each other while one of the characters talks.

Works for me!

I'm sure I've said this elsewhere, but: once upon a time I thought a great filmmaker might be able to do one film per book. I don't think so now, and haven't for a while. Good films, interesting films, maybe...but not ones that do justice to the works...though if they were good enough to make peeps buy the books, that's good in a different way.
Because the Chron's are different than LOTR. The "minor" characters matter to the world, the plot, the themes in ways that LOTR characters just don't. The stories of the people within the story are more intense, dramatic, essential, and relevant.
And, in LOTR, no matter the difficulty of particular characters struggles, the basic idea is simple, and there's pretty much only one. In the Chron's the ideas themselves are at issue/in combat.
I can see justice done with a series. 10 or 15 per book...perhaps someone brilliant could do it in 7ish...but no way less than that. [my current opinion, despite anything I might have posted elsewhere/previously].

I seriously disliked the cutting even in LOTR. But cutting out pieces of the Chrons is something not simply worse, but like on another level of worse. That said, alas, that is even less likely to be done or done well than a single movie.

It will be especially challenging to keep the quality high throughout the series, and the question of resources is going to be a problem as well - the locations to film, the special effects etc.

The most likely it could be done more or less well - by someone enthusiastic and making that for the sake of it, not expecting the series to be any popular and at the same time having the resources to freely use. Either a multimillionaire admirer of the books, or maybe a seriously interested group of people to write, film and act - something like a much longer and closer to the text version of FBH (Fantasy Bedtime Hour, certainly).

Agree with all the difficulties you cite...but they're even more problematic in any other format.

Yes, we need a lucky coincidence of someone[s] rich, brilliant, dedicated, and influential.

A movie would just take less resources, if the quality is approximately equal. And is more likely to be watched by anyone new. Though I myself don't see now a single piece I'd like to cut out, and a movie would require a lot of that. What my thoughts on this were - that it may be more of a variant to make both a series and a film - just a shortened version of the series to get attention. Yes, I know I'm greedy

And I had some thoughts on the technical side. If I was making that, the most likely result - well, something like an unabridged audio book. With pictures.

I've thought on the possibility of making a cartoon a lot. It could decrease the need to work on the effects, but will require quite some hard work, and still will likely not show much of the needed beauty. I have some more ideas, maybe more on a strange side though.

Ayup All...

Unfortunately, most if not all Filmmakers are going to cut and/or re-arrange elements of a book to drive the story. They simply can't fit it all in because it will make an unnecessarily long, and yes, boring film to the non-fanboys. And it costs too much. Prohibitively so. It happens in EVERY adaptation. The skill of the Screenplay writer is taking what's needed, and keeping it tight and focussed and exciting. A little extra here and there can be made, maybe for the Directors cut of the DVD, but not a lot. Or unless you're Peter Jackson maybe...

But the 'Trouble', If you could call it that, with SRDs writing is the 'Wordiness' of his style. Necessary to him and us, but wordy and slightly repetetive, IMO. For Instance, There's a part here in Runes when Linden's worried about her son, and every so often, (IMO) the Narrative flow is stopped dead in its tracks with a (in Italics possibly) 'Jeremiah' ! (8O ) and that so Tees me off ! C'mon, I KNOW she's worried, but sheesh... You won't get that in any half-decent film.

But as I've said before, I think its perfectly possible to convey those well-described emotions. Once Lindens situation regarding her parents has been dealt with once in her Introductory 'Soliloquy' segment, the very first time we meet her cinematically, It won't be necessary to remind the Cinema-Goer every time she's fed up and thinks of them. And I'm sure Brad (Pitt, my choice for Covenant) can stomp around and snap at everyone until it's time for him to come around and find his answer to Despite...

BTW, Effa, I think that a Rape scene in animation would actually feel worse than a Live-action version. I'm just thinking of about how Uber-violent the tone of some of that Japanese Manga, or even Tom and Jerry can seem...