Kevin's Watch

I believe this discussion has been had before...but never really came to any conclusive conclusions...so I'm Bumping it Redux.

-> The first scene where Cov meets the Creator has always felt...disjointed and confusing to me...so I'd love any help in understanding certain things....her goes:

1) The sign says: Beware.
Q: If the Creator holds the sign, shouldn't it say, Be True? The Creator is choosing Covenant, so why is he warning Cov of his choice? And what's with they eyes?

2) As Cov walks by, the beggar says in a strong, forceful and powerful voice, "Give." basically telling Cov what to do here, a command if you will. Cov gets angry and throws his ring into the beggar's bowl. The beggar softens, we have some friendly dialogue between the two, then the beggar says, "Take back the ring, be true - you need not fail."

Q: If Cov giving up the ring is a "qualifier" of some sort for the Creator in determening if Cov is the right person for the job, isn't Cov giving the ring freely upon being commanded by someone he doesn't know a danger in that Foul might do the same, and then Cov repeating this?

ad 2: TC does not yet know that his ring has any special ability when he offers it to the beggar; therefore his act in my opinion is not an act of giving up responsibility, but an act of empathy, a token that despite of what the ring represents to him he is still willing to part from it to help someone.

But why the command instead of just asking softer?

He wanted to be heard. TC was absorbed in his own problems at the time, a command such as "Give!" may have been necesary to get his attention.

Also, just a thought, if we view the morality of the Chronicles as consisting of "Good" and "Evil" only, this scene could have been a test. Good and Evil do not suggest things to be done, they compel. It is up to us to decide which "master" we will follow. This scene shows that TC (at this point, anyway) allows himself to be compelled by Good, this is his true self, hence the further command "Be true."

Orlion wrote:He wanted to be heard. TC was absorbed in his own problems at the time, a command such as "Give!" may have been necesary to get his attention.

Maybe...but I think there's more to it than that...

Also, just a thought, if we view the morality of the Chronicles as consisting of "Good" and "Evil" only, this scene could have been a test. Good and Evil do not suggest things to be done, they compel. It is up to us to decide which "master" we will follow. This scene shows that TC (at this point, anyway) allows himself to be compelled by Good, this is his true self, hence the further command "Be true."

Nice...never thought of it that way...maybe...

Agree that the test was to see if Covenant yet retained compassion for others despite being outcast and overcome with bitterness. Not a test to see if Covenant coveted his ring. (Who knows, maybe Covenant's choosing the ring as his gift to the beggar was what led to the ring being potent in the Land. I always sort of believed that. The beggar clearly saw at that moment the strong complex relationship between Covenant and his ring. And he was seeking a man who did not covent power.)

I think the preemptory tone, "Give.", was merely part of the test. You see it as a command. I see it as the beggar NOT making any sort of appeal. He could have truly begged, pleading and seeming desperate, invoking compassion. But that would have skewed the test - he wanted to see what compassion Covenant could summon on his own, without being asked. "Give" asks for nothing.

As far as what's with the eyes, I've read this as "Beware of Lord Foul", and the eyes being Foul, just as they were at the beginning of TWL....

rdhopeca wrote:As far as what's with the eyes, I've read this as "Beware of Lord Foul", and the eyes being Foul, just as they were at the beginning of TWL....

But the Creator hasn't chosen Cov as his champion yet...where does Foul come into play at this point?

It almost seems that the eyes are added by SRD as a tension piece for the reader, much like the lightning is used in Runes...

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:

rdhopeca wrote:As far as what's with the eyes, I've read this as "Beware of Lord Foul", and the eyes being Foul, just as they were at the beginning of TWL....

But the Creator hasn't chosen Cov as his champion yet...where does Foul come into play at this point?

Hasn't he? He's there waiting for him...

rdhopeca wrote:

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:

rdhopeca wrote:As far as what's with the eyes, I've read this as "Beware of Lord Foul", and the eyes being Foul, just as they were at the beginning of TWL....

But the Creator hasn't chosen Cov as his champion yet...where does Foul come into play at this point?

Hasn't he? He's there waiting for him...

I don't think he has...why the test then? (Give. then Cov gives, then Creator softens, then Be True)...

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:

rdhopeca wrote:

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote: But the Creator hasn't chosen Cov as his champion yet...where does Foul come into play at this point?

Hasn't he? He's there waiting for him...

I don't think he has...why the test then? (Give. then Cov gives, then Creator softens, then Be True)...

Confirmation of his choice? Given what was said at the end of TPTP when the Creator tells TC his familiarity with despair made him wise, one has to wonder how many other possible champions the Creator could choose from. How many lepers with while gold weddings rings are there these days?

Do you think the Creator, Foul and Cov are One...a Trinity? Is that why the sign said Beware and the eyes appeared in it, though the sign was the Creator's?

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Do you think the Creator, Foul and Cov are One...a Trinity? Is that why the sign said Beware and the eyes appeared in it, though the sign was the Creator's?

Not really. However, in the 2nd Chrons Foul mentions choosing LA, even though it appears that the Creator chose her also...and the eyes are in the bonfire during the summoning. I then remember catching the eyes in the sign on a re-read of LFB and thinking that maybe Foul also choose Covenant in some way. Remember, Foul wants the white gold ring also.

rdhopeca wrote: I then remember catching the eyes in the sign on a re-read of LFB and thinking that maybe Foul also choose Covenant in some way. Remember, Foul wants the white gold ring also.

But what if Cov listened to the sign's message and ignored the Creator because of it? Wouldn't that be something Foul wouldn't want, therefore making his Beware antithetical?

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:

rdhopeca wrote: I then remember catching the eyes in the sign on a re-read of LFB and thinking that maybe Foul also choose Covenant in some way. Remember, Foul wants the white gold ring also.

But what if Cov listened to the sign's message and ignored the Creator because of it? Wouldn't that be something Foul wouldn't want, therefore making his Beware antithetical?

Then he would be refusing his choice as champion, and would have been a lot less informed when Drool summoned him...and probably would have done a lot more damage.

rdhopeca wrote:

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Do you think the Creator, Foul and Cov are One...a Trinity? Is that why the sign said Beware and the eyes appeared in it, though the sign was the Creator's?

Not really.

But Donaldson has already explicitly settled this issue in the affirmative:

. . . you're quite right about the "shared identity" theme. I was explicitly thinking of the Creator, the Despiser, and wild magic as aspects of Covenant himself. And the part of himself which he denies--wild magic, his own personal power to assign meaning to his life and experiences--is the part which must mediate his internal conflicts (the struggle between the creative and destructive sides of his nature). Hence the thematic development from the first to the second "Chronicles." In the first, Covenant opposes his--dare I say it?--Dark Side and wins (an expensive--and temporary--victory). In the second, he surrenders to his Dark Side, and thereby gains the power to contain it (another expensive--and temporary--victory). "The Last Chronicles" will explore this theme further as Covenant's quest to become whole continues. (Linden Avery is also on a quest to become whole, but hers takes an entirely different form.)

(04/27/2004)

So the ring--wild magic--is his personal power to assign meaning to his life, what Nietzsche called "will to power." In giving this to the beggar (Creator), Covenant is exercising his power in a positive, affirming manner. It is a symbol of how this man, who is on the razor's edge between "darkness and light," still has the potential to chose his good side. And that's why he need not fail. The love that is still in the world is the love that is still within him.

"Beware" and "be true" are two ways to say the same thing. They are both warnings not to give up your will to power, and to not exercise it in a negative fashion.

Hrm....

If Drool can summon someone to the Land, and Foul taught him, then this is Foul's first "attempt" at bringing the white gold into that world, right?

Some more relevant Niezsche quotes:

Behold, I teach you the Overman! The Overman is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: The Overman shall be the meaning of the earth! I beg of you my brothers, remain true to the earth, and believe not those who speak to you of otherworldly hopes! Poisoners are they, whether they know it or not. Despisers of life are they, decaying ones and poisoned ones themselves, of whom the earth is weary: so away with them!

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth. . . Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do – back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning.

Despisers of life? Remain true to the earth? Sound familiar? Covenant's "gift-giving love" and his giving up his wedding ring? There is still love in the world?

Wow...what's that from? Beautiful. I think I'm getting yur points (Rob, Malik)...

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Wow...what's that from? Beautiful. I think I'm getting yur points (Rob, Malik)...

Thus Spoke Zarathustra And yes, it is very, very beautiful.

I wanted to highlight a different part from the Donaldson quote above:

And the part of himself which he denies--wild magic, his own personal power to assign meaning to his life and experiences--is the part which must mediate his internal conflicts (the struggle between the creative and destructive sides of his nature).

We have been misled by our Christian heritage to understand "Creator" as "God." But the Creator in this tale is not a god, but instead it is the creative side of Covenant's nature. (This reader confusion is, I believe, the source of Donaldson's frustration with "creator questions" on the GI.) The Land is his internal mindscape where the battle between his creative and destructive side is played out. So the "Creator" of this Land is Covenant himself.

And one more Donaldson quote to tie all this together (I also used it in the recent religion thread):

In my view, *meaning* is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story).

Compare that with the Nietzsche quote above:

believe not those who speak to you of otherworldly hopes! Poisoners are they, whether they know it or not. Despisers of life are they,

. . . and you've got the Chronicles in a nutshell. Wild magic is his potential to find a meaning, and that meaning he wants TC to find is one "true to the earth," as Nietzsche said above, i.e. not otherworldly or external. A "human meaning," as Nietzsche said above.

[That's also the whole point of my embracing skeletons and "be true" above them.]