Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:31 am**

Is Foul manipulating Roger simply to force Covenant into having to kill his own son ?

Posted: **Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:47 pm**

Mr. Broken wrote:Is Foul manipulating Roger simply to force Covenant into having to kill his own son ?

...with the larger goal being - what, exactly?

Posted: **Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:25 pm**

It seems to me that Foul's intent with Roger is, as always, Covenant's despair. Foul's attacks are always multi-pronged: whether Covenant must destroy Roger, or sacrifice something in order to save Roger, or watch Roger serve the Despiser, or watch Roger destroy himself ... it all serves Foul.

I don't see Thomas and Roger mending their relationship. There has been insufficient backstory illuminating Roger's POV for Donaldson, at this late date, to write about their reconcilliation. Although Donaldson may save Roger before the end, as he saved Joan once before, it will not bring them together.

Also: so much of the Final Cs is about parents and their children. I predict we will see the worst possible thing we can imagine happening to Covenant with regard to his son. Is watching his son die the worst thing? Is killing ones own son the worst thing? Or is Donaldson up to something so horrifying we cannot even contemplate?

One thing for sure: Foul's not going to hold anything back.

Edit: we still don't know what Roger meant when he said that he would take Joan's place if Joan failed. But I suspect that will still play out, and that this is related to our question.

Posted: **Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:03 pm**

Maybe it's just because I'm a parent myself but I can't think of anymore of a powerful emotional moment than when TC is forced by Foul to choose between the Ring and his son.
(which is where I think/hope it's going)

If it's still all a dream in TC's head (which I still believe) he needs to wrap up all the loose ends of his life from what ever point he started dreaming:

Reuniting with his wife, who he never stopped loving, and saving his only son who was taken from him as a baby.
The Chronicles are all about the uselessness of power.
The two biggest part of TC's life where he was most powerless and was the most devastating were those two things (even his leprosy pales in comparison, imo).
Those are the two things that will be resolved in his dream at the end.

Posted: **Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:19 pm**

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Maybe it's just because I'm a parent myself but I can't think of anymore of a powerful emotional moment than when TC is forced by Foul to choose between the Ring and his son.
(which is where I think/hope it's going)

Excellent point...and further complicated by his relationship with Linden [and her purposes and son]...TC's dilemma has more points and barbs than the 1st chrons.

Posted: **Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:05 am**

dlbpharmd wrote:
Mr. Broken wrote:Is Foul manipulating Roger simply to force Covenant into having to kill his own son ?
...with the larger goal being - what, exactly?

A broken hearted Covenant, is a weakened Covenant, Covenant is the white gold, white gold is the keystone to the Arch of time, and Joan also has a ring. Think of it like a back up plan, if the Worm is not awakened by Covenant, (Im begining to think it can sleep through anything) then Joan still has a chance because she also posesses the wild magic. The death of Roger at the hands of his father, could weaken Covenant leaving the Arch of time vulnerable to Joan. Or something like that.

Posted: **Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:33 am**

Mr. Broken wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:
Mr. Broken wrote:Is Foul manipulating Roger simply to force Covenant into having to kill his own son ?
...with the larger goal being - what, exactly?
Think of it like a back up plan, if the Worm is not awakened by Covenant, (Im begining to think it can sleep through anything) then Joan still has a chance because she also posesses the wild magic. Perhaps, but LA has already awakened the Worm at the end of FR. I find it doubtful that SRD would use the same crisis twice, epseciually within the same series of books.

Posted: **Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:12 am**

I can also imagine Covenant having to choose between Linden and Joan. And whoever wins out of those wiss have a fight to the death with Roger..

Posted: **Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:54 pm**

ninjaboy wrote:I can also imagine Covenant having to choose between Linden and Joan. And whoever wins out of those wiss have a fight to the death with Roger..

UFC 99: Live from The Land.
One night; Winner take All.

Posted: **Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:12 pm**

Do you see TC buying into Linden's ideology and declaring that the Arch can crash and the Land burn, all that's important is saving his son Roger?

Posted: **Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:31 pm**

I don't see TC buying into that...he is the Arch.

And I'd love to see Foul force Cov to choose between Joan, Linden and Roger, one left alive...that would really hit home...Despair, groveler...

Posted: **Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:38 pm**

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:I don't see TC buying into that...he is the Arch.

Not anymore!

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:And I'd love to see Foul force Cov to choose between Joan, Linden and Roger, one left alive...that would really hit home...Despair, groveler...

Niiiiice!

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:46 am**

As much as Foul would like to make Covenant cry, I think he would only have these choices for Covenant "on condition that YOU destroy the Arch of Time!" If TC says no, he flays one of the three alive, probably Joan or RC. Then, he tortures Jeremiah, because Linden's pain is TC's pain. Does TC want it to stop? Destroy the Arch of Time, groveler!

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:10 am**

Would it not better promote despite to force Linden to choose , and force Covenant to stop her? Intimate betrayal with tragic consequence.

Posted: **Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:30 pm**

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Do you see TC buying into Linden's ideology and declaring that the Arch can crash and the Land burn, all that's important is saving his son Roger?

There's ample evidence that such is not Linden's ideology.

Posted: **Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:00 am**

Mr. Broken wrote:Would it not better promote despite to force Linden to choose , and force Covenant to stop her? Intimate betrayal with tragic consequence.

That actually makes sense... Put Linden in a position such that the only way to save Jeremiah is to use so much power that it will topple the Arch...

Covenant's only choice would be to resist her.

Posted: **Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:37 am**

wayfriend wrote:
shadowbinding shoe wrote:Do you see TC buying into Linden's ideology and declaring that the Arch can crash and the Land burn, all that's important is saving his son Roger?
There's ample evidence that such is not Linden's ideology.

Maybe I didn't phrase it well. Linden wants to save the Land and fight LF but helping her son is more important to her. She will not sacrifice her son for the sake of the 'greater good'.

Covenant expresses similar views in TPTP's start. I think there's a difference between them though. Covenant's stance is far more abstract. It's not HIS son he wants to protect but an anonymous child he has only met a few minutes ago. And he seems to make the decision based on abstract principles (the child is real while the Land and everyone in it are a mere dream) while Linden acts from an emotional and egocentric position.

But in the end, how would Covenant act? Would saving the real people (Roger, Joan, Linden and probably Jeremiah) be more important to him than saving the Land? That is the question after all. And which would be more important to him, his RL wife and son or Linden and her adopted son?

Posted: **Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:54 am**

I smell a prophesy. Lord Mhoram stated once that the Land would not be undone by motives such as this. Hopefully he was right.

Posted: **Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:04 pm**

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
But in the end, how would Covenant act? Would saving the real people (Roger, Joan, Linden and probably Jeremiah) be more important to him than saving the Land? That is the question after all. And which would be more important to him, his RL wife and son or Linden and her adopted son?

But Covenant is dead, he essentially isn't real anymore

Posted: **Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:36 pm**

Orlion wrote:
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
But in the end, how would Covenant act? Would saving the real people (Roger, Joan, Linden and probably Jeremiah) be more important to him than saving the Land? That is the question after all. And which would be more important to him, his RL wife and son or Linden and her adopted son?
But Covenant is dead, he essentially isn't real anymore

This doesn't prevent him from giving preferential treatment to real people. This point was illustrated in Mirror of her Dreams, wasn't it?

Kevin's Watch

The Despiser's Intent.

The Despiser's Intent.

Re: The Despiser's Intent.

Re: The Despiser's Intent.

Re: The Despiser's Intent.