Kevin's Watch

Re-reading LFB right now; finally purchased replacements for the ancient books I had before. TC is on the Quest for the Staff of Law. He stopped at Revelstone and garnered help from the Lords, and now they are just leaving Manhome, where fivescore Ranyhyn offered themselves to him. He is preparing to leave and decides he wants to shave and requests soap to use. They bring him soap to shave with and he lathers up while Pietten looks on. Why do they have only sand to wash with at Revelstone, which is a permanent habitation, and the nomadic Ramen have SOAP? I'm confused. Seems to me it would be the other way around. Did anyone else pick up on that? Just a silly detail that jumped out at me this time around.

good catch....did TC use plain water at revelstone to soften his beard? thats the only thing i recall. but he does seem to shave alot in the first book or is it just at Manhome? not sure... could be that the ramen had the art of rendering fat that was a new idea in the land... since they were similar to native americans it seems they would waste nothing from the animals they hunted, hehe though they might discard Kresh fat as it would probably be acidic and burn the skin

Yes, Revelstone apparently didn't have soap; he used "fine sand" to wash with in his rooms there, and at many stops at rivers along his travels he washed with sand in the riverbeds. The stay at Manhome is actually the only time I remember the word "soap" in the entire Chronicles series. Don't know why it caught my eye this time after 30 years. It actually said he lathered with it, so I am pretty sure it was real soap. It just struck me as odd that people who live in tents in a pretty primitive fashion have soap when the Lords, who have certain powers and abilities, don't have it. I don't know what they washed clothes with; I guess robes were used instead of pants because wearing pants washed in sand would produce some pretty unpleasant side effects. Heh heh...... Hey, like always, just killing time until next year's book.........

Blackhawk wrote: good catch....did TC use plain water at revelstone to soften his beard? thats the only thing i recall. but he does seem to shave alot in the first book or is it just at Manhome? not sure... could be that the ramen had the art of rendering fat that was a new idea in the land... since they were similar to native americans it seems they would waste nothing from the animals they hunted, hehe though they might discard Kresh fat as it would probably be acidic and burn the skin

I like Blackhawk's answer.....the Ramen may have had better access to natural lye to add to rendered fat to make soap.

Still, why didn't they share with the Lords? Or the others who lived at Revelstone? OK, I'll drop it now.........

Could it be that the Ranyhim had higher standards of hygiene and smoothness than the humans in the Land? While ordinary humans were content with sand cleaning, the Ramen had to make themselves squeaky clean in order to please their masters, the Ranyhim.

This thing about soap or sand seemed to have made Foul pretty furious. He mentions something about loyalty to filthy robes and sand while jeering at Covenant in his thronehall.

Krazy Kat wrote:This thing about soap or sand seemed to have made Foul pretty furious. He mentions something about loyalty to filthy robes and sand while jeering at Covenant in his thronehall.

You've found it...the real reason LF is so mean...he hates the earth because it's all so untidy and sandy.

I could be stupidly literal about soap/sand and point out that it's easy to find clean loose sand near mountains...not so much on open plains.

Rocksister wrote:Still, why didn't they share with the Lords? Or the others who lived at Revelstone? OK, I'll drop it now.........

It's not like FedEx was available for shipping.

Because the Lords didnt consume wood to make fire.

Soap requires animal fat but also it requires Lye. Lye was made from running water through hardwood ashes from burned wood. Once you had the lye you checked the PH by putting a raw egg (still in the shell) in the mixture.. if the PH was high enough for soap the egg would float.

You've found it...the real reason LF is so mean...he hates the earth because it's all so untidy and sandy.

It's possibly that Covenant was telling a bear-faced lie when he used soap to shave with. There wasn't really soap in the Land, he just wanted to get up Foul's nose.

Stephen Donaldson often says that the story is the most important thing. Trying to write a book word-perfect is folly. I think Lord Foul is also Thomas Covenant's literary critic - the worst possible critic there is!

SoulBiter wrote:Soap requires animal fat but also it requires Lye. Lye was made from running water through hardwood ashes from burned wood. Once you had the lye you checked the PH by putting a raw egg (still in the shell) in the mixture.. if the PH was high enough for soap the egg would float.

SoulBiter has just vaulted into the list of the top 5 people that I need to have in my fallout shelter!

Awwwww shucks

Nothing like having a head full of primitive knowledge that will only be productive if modern America was to fail.

Blackhawk wrote:...but he does seem to shave alot in the first book...

I loved reading this bit of your post right next to your avatar there, Blackhawk!

AjK wrote:SoulBiter wrote:
Soap requires animal fat but also it requires Lye. Lye was made from running water through hardwood ashes from burned wood. Once you had the lye you checked the PH by putting a raw egg (still in the shell) in the mixture.. if the PH was high enough for soap the egg would float.

SoulBiter has just vaulted into the list of the top 5 people that I need to have in my fallout shelter! Big Grin

LOL!

AjK wrote:

SoulBiter wrote:Soap requires animal fat but also it requires Lye. Lye was made from running water through hardwood ashes from burned wood. Once you had the lye you checked the PH by putting a raw egg (still in the shell) in the mixture.. if the PH was high enough for soap the egg would float.

SoulBiter has just vaulted into the list of the top 5 people that I need to have in my fallout shelter!

I bet he looked it up on the internet.. yes-sir-ree

It's a safe guess their soap WASN'T made from horse bones.

Ur Dead wrote:

AjK wrote:

SoulBiter wrote:Soap requires animal fat but also it requires Lye. Lye was made from running water through hardwood ashes from burned wood. Once you had the lye you checked the PH by putting a raw egg (still in the shell) in the mixture.. if the PH was high enough for soap the egg would float.

SoulBiter has just vaulted into the list of the top 5 people that I need to have in my fallout shelter!

I bet he looked it up on the internet.. yes-sir-ree

Actually I knew that from a set of books I bought and read years ago that tell all about how mountain folk used to do things. It was written so that these lost arts for surviving wouldnt be forgotten. And surprisingly enough they are still in print.

www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=searc ... ds=foxfire

How to make soap was just one of many things, how to build a fireplace and have it draw properly. How to build a proper root celler, how to build a log cabin, how to make wood shingles from a stump of oak, how to tan hides and where to find tanic acid to do so, where to find certain herbs that are good for medicine, etc etc etc. I recommend them (its three books actually) highly because they were facinating.

Could the sand be crushed soapstone, (a talc schist)? Or is this too much like the world of Xanth?

Maybe the Ramen knew what to add to powdered soapstone to turn it into a lather!
I'm jiggered if I know what that could be!

SoulBiter wrote:Actually I knew that from a set of books I bought and read years ago that tell all about how mountain folk used to do things. It was written so that these lost arts for surviving wouldnt be forgotten. And surprisingly enough they are still in print.

www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=searc ... ds=foxfire

How to make soap was just one of many things, how to build a fireplace and have it draw properly. How to build a proper root celler, how to build a log cabin, how to make wood shingles from a stump of oak, how to tan hides and where to find tanic acid to do so, where to find certain herbs that are good for medicine, etc etc etc. I recommend them (its three books actually) highly because they were facinating.

You would be surprised at how much basic knowledge has been lost--or nearly lost--in our modern age.

There is another set of books to go along with one; I think the name is "How Things Work" (or something like that) and is full of basic physics knowledge, allowing you to recreate necessary basic machines.

Anyway...you are correct--soap requires lye, obtained from wood ashes. I suspect the Lords were using fine sand at Revelstone because fine sand can be reused whereas soap cannot. Once someone has used the sand, leave it in the water, boil it, then spread the sand out to dry and it can be reused. No, it won't clean oil/protein stains but it will get rid of grime, dirt, and sweat from your skin.