Kevin's Watch

Does anyone think Kevin did the right thing with the Ritual of
Desecration? With it, he bought the Land a thousand years
free of Foul's power ... but at a terrible price.

Was the cost too high?

This has been a question Fist and I have had a running debate about. Not whether or not it was the "right thing to do". But whether or not the power of the RoD could have been used in a different way.

We know that Kevin exhausted all other options to defeat Foul and turned to the RoD in despair, "mad grief", as Atarian put it. I think, any decision made in the throes of utter despair is not a good one. It was suicide on the grandest of scales. I feel that the power that was used for ultimate destruction of the Land, could have been turned and used the other way. Such as Mhoram did when he discovered the power of the RoD. What Mhoram did was on a far lesser scale, of course, but it was still the power of the RoD. If Mhoram discovered it's crux or paradox, why couldn't Kevin? The answer: Kevin was despairing, in all his power, he could not bring down the Despiser. He, High Lord Kevin, the master of his Lore and of Earthpower, could not end the evil that plagued the Land he loved. So he turned to the RoD. His despair blinded him to it's paradox. Power is power, for good or evil. Kevin chose to use that power to commit suicide.

And, oh yes, the cost was definitely too high....

no it was not the right thing to do.

yes the price was far too high.

its as simple as that.

Forestal:

no it was not the right thing to do.

yes the price was far too high.

its as simple as that.

A Land under the thrall of Lord Foul would have been
better?

no, kevin keeping his nerve and working out a way to defeat foul would be better.

noone is invincible, kevin knew this, he just forgot in his dispair.

Forestal wrote:no, kevin keeping his nerve and working out a way to defeat foul would be better.

noone is invincible, kevin knew this, he just forgot in his dispair.

I agree, but I guess that's easier said than done. Losing his nerve was part of his despair. Kevin was familiar with Foul and his eternal existence. Everything he did to eliminate Foul failed.To Kevin, in his exhausted, despairing state, there existed an option that might crush Foul forever. The RoD was might not have been the best route to take, but in Kevin's despair, it was the only logical one.
At the end of WGW, Foul's reckless attacks upon TC, remind me of how Kevin must have felt when he enacted the RoD. Foul, like Kevin, was desperate. Both were at their wits end. In desperation both did whatever was necessary in an attempt to topple their opponent.

Forestal:

no, kevin keeping his nerve and working out a way to defeat foul would be better.

noone is invincible, kevin knew this, he just forgot in his dispair.

So what could Kevin have done to take down Foul short of the ROD?

The way it was set up in the novel, I don't think there was any other
option for Kevin.

there is always a way... i dont have all the answers, i dont know what the correct answer was, but i do knwo that there was one.

Forestal:

there is always a way... i dont have all the answers, i dont know what the correct answer was, but i do knwo that there was one.

We're just going to have to disagree then.

In my opinion, there isn't always a way ... sometimes all the courage,
hope, and goodness in the world isn't enough to stop evil from happening.
Sometimes you don't have a choice between good and evil ... there is just
a choice between one evil or the other.

I hope that this is one of the things that will be answered in the Third Chronicles. We just don't know enough of the specifics of the circumstances of what happened -- only the bare bones of the act...

I'm with Kaos, and, of course , in total disagreement with Fire!! *grrrrrrr* Since someone else brought up the topic again, I'm entirely willing to try to spell out my view again.

Foul was powerful and devious. He got himself onto Kevin's Council - Kevin's right hand, no less! From this position, he learned all there was to know about Kevin's power, strategies, etc. When Foul attacked, he was devestating! Though the Lords fought valiantly, with power enough to cause great damage to Kurash Plenethor, the outcome was never in doubt: Foul had dealt the cards, and played his hand perfectly.

Kevin certainly tried everything he possibly could. He was much more powerful than Mhoram, had a much greater understanding of the Lore, and centuries more experience. I'd be willing to bet that he dispatched more than one Raver, with much greater ease than Mhoram did.

But Foul was another matter. Though the Ravers may be, Foul definitely is un-killable by any means. And forget about killing him, because he had done eveything so perfectly that, very soon after he began, there was no way to even stop him.

The only thing Kevin did not try was the Power of Command. He would not risk unforseen - unforseeable - consequences.

That left the strongest blow there was, the Ritual of Desecration. If there was anything less than that, but greater than everything else he had tried, why wouldn't he have tried it? The consequences of using it were IMMENSE, but they were forseeable. Kevin had been living in fear that things would come down to it. But when everything had been tried, and the only possible outcome was Foul's victory - a possible eternity of horror and pain for the Land - it had to be done.

Of course Kevin despaired. Who would not cry in rage and devestation if the only way to save their sick child was to have limbs amputated? It was the second-to-worst thing Kevin could possibly do, second only to allowing Foul to torture, warp, and kill the people, trees, and animals of the Land, and the Land itself, forever. As I said on that other thread, I think his despair sounded more like this:
"NO! PLEASE DON'T LET THIS BE THE ONLY WAY!!"
than this:
"I've tried everything there is to try, but I can't stop him! WELL THEN I'LL DESTROY IT ALL! IF I CAN'T SAVE IT, I'LL DESTROY IT!!"

The only possibility is what Fire has been saying all along - that Kevin was unaware of something. She thinks that Mhoram figured out something that Kevin did not. I think you misinterpret what happened. I think that Mhoram figured out the problem: that the Oath of Peace - the unwillingness to go to certain lengths - prevents the understanding and use of Kevin's Lore. Yes, the power "could be used to preserve as well as destroy. Despair was not the only unlocking emotion." But that understanding was only a revelation to those who came after the Ritual, who (for good reason) lived in terror of it, who swore the Oath of Peace to ensure it never happened again. Again, as I said in that other thread, the thought that the power could be used for good never occurred to them. That's why it was a revelation to Mhoram. It took a bit of brilliance for someone of that mindset to see it, and something more than brilliance to accept it.

But Kevin was not from that era. He hadn't been brought up to be terrified of these powers, and, I'd bet, dabbled in things that Mhoram never would have tried. That's why I think he understood all about it, and tried "unlocking" the power with other emotions. But it wasn't enough. Where Foul was concerned, nothing sufficed. The only choice was to do the worst possible damage to him, and hope that those who came next could figure out something else. Fortunately, they didn't have to try. Mhoram fought a lesser battle. Yes, it was HUGE for one with Mhoram's knowledge, experience, and power levels. His personal accomplishment, his growth and what he learned about himself, cannot be overestimated or topped. But it was not nearly the fight Kevin had. The white gold fought that battle.

*collapses into chair*

I've a personal quote: A desperate man will do desperate things in desperate times.

Kevin panicked (inside) and tried to think of someway to rid Foul from the Land/Earth. With Foul laughing at him on-top of KW while Kevin's armies were being annilated on the battlefield below he, like Troy got desperate and made the only viable solution he could see (at the moment). Troy marched his army to near death to Garroting Deep and HE paid a high price for victory.

When faced with such evil and carnage and without the experience to back you up and help keep a cool head... it's small wonder Kevin chose what he had to do. Foul knew it. It was (as TC is fond of saying) what he wanted (Kevin) to do all along, via dispair.

Fist and Faith wrote:

The only possibility is what Fire has been saying all along - that Kevin was unaware of something. She thinks that Mhoram figured out something that Kevin did not. I think you misinterpret what happened. I think that Mhoram figured out the problem: that the Oath of Peace - the unwillingness to go to certain lengths - prevents the understanding and use of Kevin's Lore. Yes, the power "could be used to preserve as well as destroy. Despair was not the only unlocking emotion." But that understanding was only a revelation to those who came after the Ritual, who (for good reason) lived in terror of it, who swore the Oath of Peace to ensure it never happened again. Again, as I said in that other thread, the thought that the power could be used for good never occurred to them. That's why it was a revelation to Mhoram. It took a bit of brilliance for someone of that mindset to see it, and something more than brilliance to accept it.

But Kevin was not from that era. He hadn't been brought up to be terrified of these powers, and, I'd bet, dabbled in things that Mhoram never would have tried. That's why I think he understood all about it, and tried "unlocking" the power with other emotions. But it wasn't enough. Where Foul was concerned, nothing sufficed. The only choice was to do the worst possible damage to him, and hope that those who came next could figure out something else. Fortunately, they didn't have to try. Mhoram fought a lesser battle. Yes, it was HUGE for one with Mhoram's knowledge, experience, and power levels. His personal accomplishment, his growth and what he learned about himself, cannot be overestimated or topped. But it was not nearly the fight Kevin had. The white gold fought that battle.

Okay, like I said in the other thread, I know Mhoram was facing things on a much smaller scale than Kevin did. But, what does that have to do with the other "edge" of the power? The power was the same power. The alternative was there. The RoD was the MOST powerful force of the Earthpower, yes. But, why did it have to be used toward destroying the Land? I believe that if Kevin wasn't so wrought in his own grief he would have found what Mhoram did. If that RoD was powerful enough to rend the Land of all life, it sure as hell was powerful enough to get rid of Foul without rending all life from the Land. THAT is the paradox of power...the crux. Mhoram found it.

And I know Foul knew everything the Old Lords did, that's why he laughed as Kevin was invoking the RoD. He laughed because he knew Kevin was in despair. We know enough about Foul to know that is what he does. He drives his enemies to the brink of their own madness, teaches them to hate themselves for what they are. He played Kevin so well, he wormed himself into Kevin's good graces, got a seat on the council, learned all he could of Kevin's Lore, then...he betrayed him. Who wouldn't fall into despair from that? Who wouldn't become blinded by grief? The higher they are, the farther they fall. And Kevin fell hard. And I know he must have tried everything to bring down Foul. I know he felt all that was left was the RoD. But, I believe that the power of the RoD could have been used differently.

I see what your saying. But, the lack of the Oath of Peace isn't what prevented Kevin from seeing the other side of the blade. And I don't think I misinterpreted the realization that Mhoram came too. The title of the chapter is: The Ritual of Desecration. What other meaning could I have come to conclude? And I know he didn't face Foul with his new knowledge of the power. But, you know what, I think if he had, he could have brought Foul down. He brought the raver down with it. And yes, I know the raver isn't Foul. But Mhoram was strong and he was smart, and he wasn't despairing.

Kevin did what he did out of despair...he mind was overrun with it. And that is blinding.

*flops back in her chair and smiles sweetly at Fist*

Sorry, Fist, but I gotta go with Furls. Despair always appears to be the only possible solution. It's like (or more correctly, perhaps, it is) suicide. Sure, it solves your problems, but the mess of the solution is far costlier than the original problem, and there's always other solutions available than suicide.

Kevin's sitting there thinking, "Ok, I really screwed this one over. All my friends are dead but one, and he's the world's and my own worst enemy. Oh poor me, there's nothing I can do. I might as well die... but I'll take out Foul with me.... hey, there's an idea, I'll invite him to perform the Ritual of Desecration with me. I'll use his own power against him. Now I can smugly and bravely go to my death, leaving the bloodguard, giants, and other people of the Land to clean up the mess after I'm gone." Pffft.

He could've evacuated the Land, fortified Revelstone, etc., but if you ask me, Kevin was too damned proud to accept anything other than a perfect solution.

My ears are burning.

Well, here's another slant ... do you think that Kev's use of the RoD was an integral part of the chain of events that eventually led to TC's arrival?

What was the Creator thinking when Kev started reciting the RoD? Was he just crossing his fingers hoping to God that it would all work out? Or would he have forseen the outcome?

Well, here's another slant ... do you think that Kev's use of the RoD was an integral part of the chain of events that eventually led to TC's arrival?

Yes, because of the "omen of the halfhand" which (nearly) everyone saw TC as a reincarnation of Berek Earthfriend Halfhand. Lena was the first to point it out. Same as with Foul telling TC that he was chosen.
We've debated before about why couldn't they just choose anyone else with a white-gold ring and it was TC's resembalance to Berek and a whole bunch of other reasons along with his (TC's) capacity for dispair.

What was the Creator thinking when Kev started reciting the RoD? Was he just crossing his fingers hoping to God that it would all work out? Or would he have forseen the outcome?

Probably something along the lines of "aww crap man!" But seriously I think he didn't "think" anything of it but definitely was heartbroken. Remember that the Land's creator (much like our own...for you who believe in such things) allows us to do what we want because of our choices. However the outcome it is the price WE pay.

Makes me wonder, and I don't recall reading anywhere... did Kevin survive the RoD or did it kill him along with (almost) everything else?

I'm pretty sure the RoD meant the end of Kevin.

But re the Creator etc I meant ... perhaps he was rubbing his hands together thinking "good, good, now that sets the scene for me to go grab an aggro leper in a couple of thousand years and plonk him in the Land to give Foul the A once and for all"

Syl,
I don't think that's nearly what was going through Kevin's mind!

Fire,
I truly love having you here!
OK, as I see it, our opposing views are based on your belief that Mhoram knew something that Kevin did not. I just don't know why you believe this.

As I tried to show in the first of my two paragraphs that you just quoted, I think it's obvious, understandable, and logical that the New Lords didn't know that the power of the Ritual "could be used to preserve as well as destroy. Despair was not the only unlocking emotion." THAT was the paradox, the crux, that Mhoram found: The greatest power possible could be invoked without the despair that had terrified them ever since the Ritual.

But I'm not aware of any reason to think that Kevin didn't know this.

Furls Fire wrote:I see what your saying. But, the lack of the Oath of Peace isn't what prevented Kevin from seeing the other side of the blade.

What do you think Mhoram did that Kevin did not? Of course, we can't really know what Kevin tried. I'm just assuming he didn't say, "NO!! He's killed my friends!!! It'll probably come down to the Ritual eventually, so I think I'll just do it now." But we do know what Mhoram did. As I think I pointed out before, Mhoram did not do anything with his new-found wisdom but kill. Whether or not Kevin ever conceived of using things like love as the "unlocking emotions" of his greatest power, as Mhoram did, those motivations did not allow Mhoram to win in a way other than by directing extraordinarily powerful energy at his enemy until it died. He didn't use his new knowledge and might to infuse the enemy with love, or make themselves invisible to the enemy, or put up force-barriers like the one guarding the Second Ward.

The difference between the two is not that Mhoram found a different solution. He found the same solution. He used his power the same way we know Kevin eventually used it. To a lesser degree, since he fought a lesser foe, but still the same strategy. The difference is that, living with the Oath of Peace as the focus of their lives not only made it almost impossible to see that the extreme power brought about through despair could also be brought about through love, but it also meant that Mhoram NEVER would have taken that final step that Kevin took. Mhoram would have let Foul win rather than Desecrate. After all, he was willing to risk Foul's victory for the sake of a little girl about to be bit by a snake. He didn't believe in such sacrifices. He believed that other means would be found - either to stop Foul's ultimate victory, or eventually remove him from power. Kevin was not willing to take the chance.

Personally, I'd never take Kevin's route either. You hear about people with terminal diseases who want to die, even ask for it, but cannot find it in themselves to commit suicide. I think that if I believed what I believe Kevin believed (:)), I would not have it within me to invoke the Ritual. But more important, I agree with Mhoram that sacrificing others is wrong. You want to sacrifice yourself? Fine. But you have no right to make that choice for others.

(With 3 kids and a wife in the house, it takes me HOURS to write these posts!! )

Well yes and on a serious vein because your post warrants it, the choice for a "leader" to sacrifice others for the good of many is a hard one to make.
That Mhorham was wise and a great leader is without question and is evident via SRD's writing. He admired the man he created. I think that SRD didn't want to create another Kevin. Sort of make Mhorham an anti-thesis of what Kevin was.
I think the difference between the two men (and this seems to be a whole other thread) (bumps are welcomed), is that Kevin while creating the Lore or enhancing it or whatever saw only the present. There was no despite in the past except for the one his forefather Berek fought.
Mhorham knew that the Desolation took over 1000 years to heal the land to it's present state. He must've doubted that if they did it all over again it would be the same.
I think that the Oath of Peace is what drove Mhorham to his Victory. It gave him an out. "...the greatest warrior is he who does not have to kill."
Hundreds and thousands were dying outside Revelstone during the seige and thousands more would've died if he did nothing. Thousands would've died if he went Kevin's way. The key was to "cut the head off the snake" and the rest will fall. In his case the Giant Raver and his armies. Kill the Giant and the Raver has lost control of his armies. This would buy time.
He also knew that he had to give TC time to do what he would do...dispite the fact he had no sure guarantee of TC. Maybe it was his intutiton or insight to the man. After all he saved the life of a little girl which showed that life was indeed precious to TC.
Mhorham took a great gamble putting the Land's fate in TC's hands. But it shows (to me) that he had faith in the Creator's choice. So lets kill the "immediate" threat which is the Giant Raver besieging Revelstone and perhaps it'll distract Foul (which it did if I remember) long enough for Covenant to do what he had to do.

Choices of whom to sacrifice that every commander must make. As Spock said in The Wrath of Khan: "The needs of the many, out weigh the needs of the few... or the one."

U-571 has the commander making that same choice. And there are other examples in real and fiction.

Here's why I think what I do.

Over his silence, the voice continued, "Kevin was a fool -- fey, anile and gutless. They are all fools. Look you, groveler. The mighty High Lord Kevin, son of Loric and great-grandson of Berek Lord-Fatherer whom I hate, stood where you now kneel, and he thought to destroy me. He discovered my designs, recognized some measure of my true stature though the dotard had set me on his right side in the Council for long years without sensing his peril -- saw at the last who I was. Then there was war between us, war that blasted the west and threatened his precious Keep itself. The feller fist was mine and he knew it. When his armies faltered and his power waned, he lost himself in despair -- he became mine in despair. He thought that he still might utterly undo me. Therefore he met me in that cavern from which I have rescued you Kiril Threndor, Heart of Thunder
...
"In truth it is already too late for them. They will come to Kiril Threndor, and I will teach them things to darken their souls. It is fitting. There Kevin met and dared me in his despair. And I accepted. The fool! I could hardly speak the words for laughing. He thought that such spells might unbind me.
"But the Power which upholds me has stood since the creation of Time. Therefore when Kevin dared me to unleash the forces that would strike the Land and all its accursed creations into dust, I took the dare. Yes, and laughed until there was doubt in his face before the end. That folly brought the age of the Old Lords to its ruin -- but I remain. I! Together we stood in Kiril Threndor, blind Kevin and I. Together we uttered the Ritual of Desecration. Ah, the fool! He was already enslaved to me and knew it not. Proud of his Lore, he did not know that the very Law which he served preserved me through that cataclysm, though all but a few of his own people and works were stricken into death.

So obviously Kevin at this point is pretty old (and not just in years, but in form if he is being called anile and a dottard). He's had a long life of little but accolades and easy victories (and if they weren't easy, he most likely would have been more careful of those he took into his confidence). I think he felt he had very little time and also very little to lose if he died. I don't think Kevin liked the idea at all of not being the Big Cheese. Being the average guy just trying to hold on, like Mhoram, wasn't Kevin's style. He was Kevin, son of Loric, son of Berek, man. It was victory (at any cost) or nothing to him.

Foul laughs at Kevin (Foul hates victims just as victims hate themselves). Not just at his motives or his failure but at the very fact the he did it at all. He makes it sound as if the RoD served no purpose, as if Kevin lost something valuable to Foul when he did it.

Yes, this could all be Foul's manipulations, but going off of Kevin's 2000 year-old self pity in tIW, I say it isn't too far off. "Release me!" he groaned. "I have done harm enough for one [lifetime?]." Doesn't exactly sound like, "Eh, I did the best I could."

Also from The Illearth War in Kevin's Lament...

For it was Kevin who had summoned Lord Foul to Kiril Threndor to utter the Ritual of Desecration. The legends said that when Kevin had seen that he could not defeat the Despiser, his heart had turned black with despair. He had loved the Land too intensely to let it fall to Lord Foul. And yet he had failed; he could not preserve it. Torn by his impossible dilemma, he had been driven to dare that Ritual. He had known that the unleashing of that fell power would destroy the Lords and all their works, and ravage the Land from end to end, make it barren for generations. He had known that he would die. But he had hoped that Lord Foul would also die, that when at last life returned to the Land it would be life free of Despite. He chose to take that risk rather than permit Lord Foul's victory.

and

how could I stand so, so much glory and dominion comprehended by the outstretch of my armsstand thus, eye to eye with the Despiser, and not be dismayed?

and

As if he could hear Covenant's thoughts, the Warmark said, "It all comes back to Kevin. He's the one who made the Seven Wards. He's the one who inspired the Bloodguard. He's the one who did the Ritual of Desecration. And it wasn't necessary-or it wasn't inevitable. He wouldn't have been driven that far if he hadn't already made his big mistake."

this seemed relevant...

"No, we must work in other ways. If we are to gain the power to defend the Earth, and yet not endanger the Land itself, we must be the masters of what we do. And it was for this purpose that Lord Kevin created his Wards-so that those who came after him could hold power wisely."
"Oh, right!" Covenant snapped. "Look at the good it did him. Hellfire! Even supposing you're going to have the luck or the brains or even the chance to find all Seven Wards and figure them out, what bloody damnation! -- what's going to happen when dear, old, dead Kevin finally lets you have the secret of the Ritual of Desecration? And it's your last chance to stop Foul in a war again! How're you going to rationalize that to the people who'll have to start from scratch a thousand years from now because you just couldn't get out of repeating history? Or do you think that when the crisis comes you're somehow going to do a better job than Kevin did?"

About the only person that supports Kevin's decision is Elena and the "few but vocal" people that echo her opinion. Going off of the results of Elena's decisions, I don't think I'd take her as the best source.