Kevin's Watch

I am doing a reread of The Power that Preserves and I am sure I missed it somewhere. OK ....don't shout at me, I'm an overworked social worker and things slip by me these days but.......Will someone explain to me how Mhorham discovered the secret to the Ritual of Desecration?

it was a somewhat mysterious insight gained through Mhorams perception of a sculpture formed by Elena which depicted a face resembling both Bannor and TC. The uncovered knowledge had the side-effect of robbing Mhoram of his seer/oracle gift. I think the same insight also led him to believe that the Oath of Peace was restricting the Lords ability to decipher the wards of Kevin's Lore.

It's all in the first few pages of the chapter 'Variol-Son' ...

SleeplessOne wrote:it was a somewhat mysterious insight gained through Mhorams perception of a sculpture formed by Elena which depicted a face resembling both Bannor and TC. The uncovered knowledge had the side-effect of robbing Mhoram of his seer/oracle gift. I think the same insight also led him to believe that the Oath of Peace was restricting the Lords ability to decipher the wards of Kevin's Lore.

It's all in the first few pages of the chapter 'Variol-Son' ...

Good answer.

I think you also have to go back to the breaking of the vow. Bannor brought the sculpture to Mhoram, and his behavior with Mhoram, as told later by Mhoram, tells me that this also gave him the insight.

Mhoram saw that the bloodguard were one extreme of unbreaking, unquestioned fidelity, Covenant the other -- complete unbelief and non-acceptance; Mhoram then realized extremity itself was the problem. And the Oath of Peace was an extreme.

The Oath removed the risk that someome would fall into despair and reenact the ROD, but it also took away the possibility of total victory. In order to win, you have to be able to risk losing everything. Thats what Mohram finally realized. and then whipped some major Giant Raver Ass to make it stick.

Also the secret of the RoD must have to do with despair and how to master it (for good or bad). After all Trell also discovered it and his power definitely came from despair.

After all Trell also discovered it and his power definitely came from despair.

I think Trell's despair was something to do with Revelstone being kept intact. Trell attempted to destroy that which he loved, the stones of Revelstone. His despair grew out of a hatred of Thomas Covenant.

Maybe Lord Mhoram also began to hate Covenant after his refusal to be summoned to the Land. Hatred might be the trigger that unleashes the wild magic, but surely it's love that tips the balance between desecration or preservation.

Maybe Lord Mhoram also began to hate Covenant after his refusal to be summoned to the Land.

hmm, nothing in the text indicated that to me, in fact Mhoram seemed to completely accept and understand TC's decision to refuse the original summons - I dont have the book in front of me, but Mhoram says something along the lines of 'you turn from us now to save life in your own world; we can not be undone by actions such as these'. Mhoram's proclamation becomes one of the key themes of the 2nd and 3rd chrons too; the ol' 'no ill can come from pure intentions' spiel ... something like that anyway

The uncovered knowledge had the side-effect of robbing Mhoram of his seer/oracle gift

I've often wondered why that is. Consider this theory. The reason Lord Mhoram could no longer see into the future was because all his thoughts were turned to the past. Back to Gallows Howe and the death of Elena. There lies the seeds of his hatred towards Thomas Covenant.
You see, I've always felt that on Gallows Howe, Mhoram had a momentary lapse of reason. He must have been exhausted, filled with sorrow, and even touched by despair: the long march, the enormous loss of lives, Elena beyond help.
Then suddenly Troy, a blind man, snatches his staff from out of his hands - I just can't believe that! If it wasn't for Bannor's alertness and speed, Troy would have taken Covenant's head clean off his shoulders.

Lord Mhoram has to have a weakness. It's what makes him human.
How else could he face his deepest fears, and ride out to fight Satanfist!

Krazy Kat wrote:

The uncovered knowledge had the side-effect of robbing Mhoram of his seer/oracle gift

I've often wondered why that is. Consider this theory. The reason Lord Mhoram could no longer see into the future was because all his thoughts were turned to the past. Back to Gallows Howe and the death of Elena. There lies the seeds of his hatred towards Thomas Covenant.
You see, I've always felt that on Gallows Howe, Mhoram had a momentary lapse of reason. He must have been exhausted, filled with sorrow, and even touched by despair: the long march, the enormous loss of lives, Elena beyond help.
Then suddenly Troy, a blind man, snatches his staff from out of his hands - I just can't believe that! If it wasn't for Bannor's alertness and speed, Troy would have taken Covenant's head clean off his shoulders.

Lord Mhoram has to have a weakness. It's what makes him human.
How else could he face his deepest fears, and ride out to fight Satanfist!

Perhaps Mhoram had weaknesses, but he didn't hate Thomas Covenant. He didn't always understand TC's motivations or reasoning, but it wasn't in it to Hate or question him. Hile was likely able to snatch his staff because he was exhausted, and simply wasnt prepared -- Hile was the Warmark, and Friend and colleague. WHy would he ever expect that coming ?

In the denoument of TPTP he gives praise to the unbeleiver when TC was shown by the creator the gathering at Glimmermere, when Mhoram put the Krill in the depths for safekeeping.

I would say that Mhoram's main weakness was his self reliance, and his fear of other people failing themselves. That's why he held himself back from the council, and didn't want to share with them the secret of the Ritual.

It was after he overcame that particular weakness, and began trusting others again, that he was able to ride out against Satansfist.

Mhoram and Trell shared something in common that lead to the discovery of that secret knowledge. This much is obvious. Trell's was exposed, while Mhoram's was well hidden.
But I'm more interested in how Mhoram overcomes his potential for despair and destruction. He passed through a trial by fire then shared his catharsis with the other Lords. Trell on the other hand failed and that's very sad.

What fascinates me most of all at the moment, is Tohrm. When High Lord Mhoram orders the recapture of the tower, Tohrm nonchalantly goes down into the basements and enacts a Ritual of Desecration. But nothing was desecrated? How was this possible? Didn't Amatin say that their staffs would not be able to control such might?

Krazy Kat wrote: What fascinates me most of all at the moment, is Tohrm. When High Lord Mhoram orders the recapture of the tower, Tohrm nonchalantly goes down into the basements and enacts a Ritual of Desecration. But nothing was desecrated? How was this possible? Didn't Amatin say that their staffs would not be able to control such might?

huh?

lorin wrote:Will someone explain to me how Mhorham discovered the secret to the Ritual of Desecration?

(Lights, please.)

And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, ...

Oh, wait, that's a different question.

In case this is still useful, as the question was adequately answered above:

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:Bill Foley: Just finished re-reading the 1st Chronicles as an appetizer to Runes and my head is abuzz...

I'm hoping that you might be willing to bring into sharper focus the revelation that High Lord Mhoram has leading into the Power that Preserves that enables him to unlock his additional power (knowledge of the Ritual of Desecration, blue flicker in the Krill, etc.).

I understand that his "secret" deals with overcoming the limits imposed by the Oath of Peace but I seem to want to understand it a little bit more literally. Is it that power requires a willingness to harm, hate or do violence? Something like that? (Again, looking for a "tune-up" here...)

I'm also interested to know how the inspiration for his understanding was found in Elena's Marrowmeld sculpture of Covenant/Bannor. In what way didthis trigger his understanding?

Thanks!

• I can't actually tell you how Mhoram's imagination/insight works: hell, I don't know how *mine* works. But I think I do know *what* he saw: the empowering paradox of passion and discipline.
  
  That's cryptic, I know. There's no good way to explain the potential hidden within paradoxes. But look at it this way. The Oath of Peace is, in effect, "modeled" on the Bloodguard. (I mean thematically, not literally.) The Bloodguard are all about emotional control: so is the Oath of Peace. Witness Atiaran's appeal to Triock when he wants to kill Covenant--and her own subsequent attitudes. Covenant, on the other hand, is all about passion (in this context, "passion" means "intense emotion"). Witness his rape of Lena, and the way he wears his emotions on his sleeve.
  
  Elena's marrowmeld sculpture put forward the notion that the control of the Bloodguard and the passion of Covenant are two faces of the same dilemma (the need of passion to be controlled, the need of control to be enlivened by passion); and that those two faces can be combined into one.
  
  From this, Mhoram extracted the understanding that the Oath of Peace has been, well, misapplied. It is literally a prescription for behavior; but it has been taken as a proscription against passion. Yet passion is power, as Covenant so often demonstrates. (And power is dangerous: therefore the Bloodguard knowingly, and the people of the Land unwittingly, have suppressed their access to it.) Mhoram learned to find his own version of "the eye of the paradox": the point where both passion and control can be affirmed.
  
  Mhoram's great insight most definitely does *not* involve "a willingness to harm, hate, or do violence." Rather it involves a willingness or ability to make choices which are not ruled or controlled by passion (e.g. hate, anger, despair, or fear), and then to act on those choices with absolute passion.
  
  Blake wrote, "Reason is the circumference of energy." Gichin Funakoshi wrote, "If your hand goes forth, withhold your anger. If your anger goes forth, withhold your hand." Someone (I've forgotten who) wrote, "Beauty is controlled passion." Mhoram learned to understand this. The fatal flaw of the Haruchai (and of Atiaran, and of Trell, and of Troy, and of the Unhomed, and of Kevin--and of Covenant early on) is that they did not.
  
  (11/24/2004)

Nothing there about Mhoram losing is seer and oracle abilities, though. If I had to speculate, I'd say Mhoram was was so changed by his knowledge that the delicate balance of character and passion which gave him his prescient powers was disrupted, lost. Or maybe the two powers are too much for one human to bear, and the gaining of the one thrust out the other.

Trell on the other hand failed and that's very sad.

I need to quote myself here because I don't really believe Trell failed.
It's funny, but I always seem to find the greatest source of hope in Trell's self-sacrifice.
I think he gave Mhoram and Tohrm a crash course in the Power That Preserves. It was the only way he knew how to contribute to the Land's need.

But what he did is very similair to what Atairan did when she tried to summon Covenant to the Land. Which leaves me wondering, while Trell was destroying the Close why didn't we hear 'the crushing of boulders'...Foul's laughter?

wayfriend wrote: Nothing there about Mhoram losing is seer and oracle abilities, though. If I had to speculate, I'd say Mhoram was was so changed by his knowledge that the delicate balance of character and passion which gave him his prescient powers was disrupted, lost. Or maybe the two powers are too much for one human to bear, and the gaining of the one thrust out the other.

This is pure speculation (but I think in line with the way SRD often thinks)
The singular commitment/passion that the RoD requires sets a boundary that precludes true seeing/prophesy/oracular ability. Because the preconception/commitment limits..perhaps..what you can see, but beyond doubt what you will interpret. I also think this is part of the reason that LF and the Elohim so often are just right enough to be absolutely wrong when they look to the future. [this is supplemental with, not replacement of the "necessity of freedom" issue...they overlap, but have separate terrain as well]

And yet the Old High Lords had prescience as well as ROD-powers.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:And yet the Old High Lords had prescience as well as ROD-powers.

It is only prescient if it is correct.
The other option is that the Old Lords knew the real future [better than anyone else we've seen] realized the RoD had to be done no matter how much evil it caused to ensure the ending the last chronicles are heading for, and only Kevin had the guts to face the guilt. [which doesn't answer the Mhoram question]
I think mine more likely, but we're probably both wrong.

This is my own interpretation of the ROD backed up up by Trell and Amok.

Earthpower exists by itself.
Lore allows for it's manipulation to do certain acts.
The lore or skill to manipulate Earthpower was at it's highest during Kevin's reign.

Let's think about the power levels the Old Lords used to wield.
Trothguard was devastated in the wars before the Ritual.
So much so that it refused growth even when the rest of the Land had recovered from Kevin's ROD.
How the heck did those Old Lords achieve such ruin?
By Lords using Earthpower guided by the passion of their lore.
Those Old Lords must have blasted the living hell out of the land in that area.
The only thing that we know of in the Land can can do that is the ROD.
The only restriction the Old Lords had at that time was the limits of their lore and the normal self preservation of being human.
They were each capable of their own ROD.
I like to think of them like tactical RODs.
But they had no despair at that time, they didn't want to kill themselves so their "RODs" were limited to the task at hand.
Also, to them there was no term "ROD", it was just the expression of their utmost power.

Amok said anyone could preform the ROD.
Could Triock?
Yes but of a limited scope based on his lore.
He could desecrate himself, his soul perhaps but that's it due to his limited lore.

Trell started the "ROD" and he was only the master of the rhadhamaerl.
I always got the impression that Trell's ROD would have been limited in scope to destroying Revelstone that he loved. That was the limit of his power and his goal.
So how did Trell learn the "Ritual"?
He didn't!
Because "Ritual" is misleading.
It leads us to believe it's a set of rules needed to be performed to achieve the end.
When in fact it's all about the individual's passions mixed with the individual's power lore.
Mhoram realizes that the Oath of Peace has put a cap on the New Lord's passions.
It's passion that invokes Earthpower.
Lore just focuses the passion.

What makes Kevin so important in regards to the ROD is that he was both the master of Earthpower and he held the Staff of Law but for the first time he was overcome with despair.
It's possible that he was the first of the Old Lords to lose hope in that way.

The challenge to Lord Foul by Kevin was a contest of wills not some elaborate ritual performed by the two of them.
Kevin believed that using the utmost of his power, the extreme limit of Kevin's very existence he could eradicate Foul, wipe him from the Earth.
It was at the end before he died and Foul was laughing at him that he realized his error.

It was the suicidal element, the despair element that triggered the runaway uncontrollable devastation that destroyed the Land.
The Old Lords didn't have this element.
Kevin did though and he also had the passion and power.
Kevin was the "perfect storm".

So even if there was no Oath none of the New Lords (at their level of lore) could have wiped out the Land like Kevin did because they lacked the lore or the power level to do so.
If Mhoram, now knowing how to invoke the ROD, wanted to sacrifice himself in a blaze or Earthpower and despair like Kevin it would have been in far limited scope.
Recovery of the other Wards would have given them more lore and thus the potential to match Kevin's destruction.
But only if they also had the equal passion and despair as well.

Now I await Wayfriend and others to turn all my ideas on it's head!
And I mean that in the best possible way!

A very plausible explanation laid out quite clearly. Thank you, HLT. The ensuing discussion should be fascinating!

Very cool, all of it. On this though:

High Lord Tolkien wrote: The challenge to Lord Foul by Kevin was a contest of wills not some elaborate ritual performed by the two of them.
Kevin believed that using the utmost of his power, the extreme limit of Kevin's very existence he could eradicate Foul, wipe him from the Earth.
It was at the end before he died and Foul was laughing at him that he realized his error.

It was the suicidal element, the despair element that triggered the runaway uncontrollable devastation that destroyed the Land.
The Old Lords didn't have this element.
Kevin did though and he also had the passion and power.
Kevin was the "perfect storm".

This is good...I've thinking on this for a long time, and I believe there is one more step/element: Kevin wasn't only willing to sacrifice himself, or even himself and his supporters [heroic in this context, and he actually saved many by sending them away]...BUT he was willing to sacrifice that which was not his to sacrifice and was the source of power to begin with. If I remember/interpreted aright, the devastation of the Land wasn't a loss of control of his power or unintended side effect...he did it on purpose.