Kevin's Watch

Sorry about the misleading title. We know nothing of ur-Vile vocabulary.

Here's the thing. While I pride myself on having an extensive vocabulary and I can get lost for hours in a good dictionary, SRD uses (and abuses) some mighty obscure words in the Chronicles.

The single word that has always baffled and continues to defy definition for me is the adjective "roynish," used in the chronicles to describe a physical aspect of the ur-Viles.

I have always interpreted the word to mean "dark complected" but that's mostly a guess on my part.

Does anyone out there know with certainty the definition of "roynish?"

Thanks in advance!

I don't know anything for certain...But I do know there was a famous Indian [India, not Native American] whose western name was Roy, so I thought they resembled Indians [appearance and lore-wise]...the only other thing I know that's close is spelled with an i not y, and basically means scum of the earth, lowlife.

Once upon a time (back when Carter was President and I was first reading the Chrons), I looked up this word and many of the other unfamiliar words SRD peppered throughout the books.

Roynish is a synonym for mangy; meaning shabby or worn out in spots. I can't say this definition felt completely appropriate in the context SRD used it as an adjective related to the urviles, but that's what my notes from the time say.

Now there are a variety of on-line resources, many of which provide the same definition. What other definitions are out there, I will leave as an exercise for those who may care to look.

Savor Dam wrote:Roynish is a synonym for mangy; meaning shabby or worn out in spots. I can't say this definition felt completely appropriate in the context SRD used it as an adjective related to the urviles, but that's what my notes from the time say.

Thanks for that.

Answers.com wrote:Roynish is an obscure word meaning mangy, paltry, or troublesome. William Shakespeare uses the word in his play, As You Like It, "My lord, the roynish clown, at whom so oft Your Grace was wont to laugh, is also missing." (Second Lord to Duke Frederick, Act II, Scene II)

Being the neo-Luddite that I am, it nevers enters my mind to consult an online dictionary, since my Contempt Prior to Investigation demands online sources be inferior to "the real thing." Thus, I am Bound in Eternal Ignorance....

I've always connected manginess with unkempt animals with fur, but I suppose the description is more often applied to animals with pelts because the manginess is that much more apparent.

I think of the ur-Viles as being as bald as eggs, but a skin condition such as mange could indeed afflict them.

Thanks again!

Savor Dam wrote:Once upon a time (back when Carter was President and I was first reading the Chrons), I looked up this word and many of the other unfamiliar words SRD peppered throughout the books.

Roynish is a synonym for mangy; meaning shabby or worn out in spots. I can't say this definition felt completely appropriate in the context SRD used it as an adjective related to the urviles, but that's what my notes from the time say.

Now there are a variety of on-line resources, many of which provide the same definition. What other definitions are out there, I will leave as an exercise for those who may care to look.

Well, yea, mangy..also scabby..but I just dismissed those because they didn't fit the rest of my mental picture [or the context if I recall correctly, which I might not]

I recall the use of the word "roynish" in connection with the speech of the ur-Viles as well.

Their "roynish tongue." That seems to be a totally inappropriate use of the word. A scabby, troublesome, mangy language?

I feel bad now. I liked the word "roynish" a lot better when I didn't know what it meant.

I think what Donaldson meant with the word is a German-like tongue. One with lots of spitting, and hard syllables. An unsoft language (like Italian) but hard and unpleasant sounding. (sorry German speaking Watchers. German tongue is not my cup of tea among the languages. And this is not because I failed a German course )

I don't know if this is relevant but in George Martin's series A song of ice and fire there's a people called the Rhoynar. They're spanish like.

The more derived meaning of roynish is "troublesome". I don't think we need to assume that hair is actually involved.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I think what Donaldson meant with the word is a German-like tongue. One with lots of spitting, and hard syllables. An unsoft language (like Italian) but hard and unpleasant sounding. (sorry German speaking Watchers. German tongue is not my cup of tea among the languages. And this is not because I failed a German course )

I don't know if this is relevant but in George Martin's series A song of ice and fire there's a people called the Rhoynar. They're spanish like.

Germans don't spit. My English students spit everytime they encounter the infamous English "th". Italian is one of the smoothest languages on Earth.

Have to go with Vader here...there's a lot more spitting in English than German...German may sound phlegmy to some english ears, but that's because they don't know how the consonants are actually made...as opposed to english speakers that actually get you wet if you're too close to them.

Vader wrote:

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I think what Donaldson meant with the word is a German-like tongue. One with lots of spitting, and hard syllables. An unsoft language (like Italian) but hard and unpleasant sounding. (sorry German speaking Watchers. German tongue is not my cup of tea among the languages. And this is not because I failed a German course )

I don't know if this is relevant but in George Martin's series A song of ice and fire there's a people called the Rhoynar. They're spanish like.

Germans don't spit. My English students spit everytime they encounter the infamous English "th".

Vraith

Have to go with Vader here...there's a lot more spitting in English than German...German may sound phlegmy to some english ears, but that's because they don't know how the consonants are actually made...as opposed to english speakers that actually get you wet if you're too close to them.

Lol, you guys are making me laugh. So you're saying Ur Viles talk like phlegmy English students?

Italian is one of the smoothest languages on Earth.

Yes, that's what I meant to say. Sorry if I was unclear earlier.

It seems SRD has used Roynish to describe an Urviles Appearance and in a couple instances a Roynish Sound coming from the Urviles and Waynhim.

I was Bored so i did a little search.

From LFB:
"their leader. Dark, roynish, and cruel, they slavered together and bit at the helpless Wraiths.

"Its roynish, eyeless face was blank with ferocity. As it struck him, it grappled for his left hand."



From IEW:
"But unlike their black roynish kindred, the Waynhim had devoted their lore to the services of the Land."

"but scattered among them were darker subjects, roynish ur-viles"

"Now he could hear the hunting snarl of the wolves, and the roynish barking of the ur-viles."

"A low buzzing noise became audible. The ur-viles were singing in their own roynish tongue, and their song made the flat, hard ground vibrate."

From TPTP:
"Satansfist had with him more of the lore-cunning, roynish, black, eyeless ur-viles"

"In the garish Stone light, the loremasters looked like roynish, compact power, fatal and eager. "

"He was only one man against several hundred of the black, roynish creatures."

From TWL:
"Their voices had a roynish sound that grated on Covenant's nerves-he had too many horrid memories of ur-viles"

"Covenant had been attacked time and again by the roynish creatures."

"others exchanged a few comments with Hamako in their roynish tongue"

"he had seen Vain's makers, the roynish and cruel beings he remembered."

TOT: No Roynish examples to quote...there were none.

TWGW:
"And as they battled, they shouted
Covenant's call in the roynish tongue of the Waynhim.

"Almost immediately, a roynish, guttural chorus greeted
her."

thats about it for the Roynish quotes... im sure there are some in Runes and FR too............ but as my signature says.....

Just in case someone might consider it a spoiler:

Spoiler

SRD never uses "roynish" with regard to the ur-Viles in the Last Chronicles (or I haven't noticed it). Must have realized at some point over the last twenty years that it's not a fitting usage.

Demondim-spawn wrote:Just in case someone might consider it a spoiler:

Spoiler

SRD never uses "roynish" with regard to the ur-Viles in the Last Chronicles (or I haven't noticed it). Must have realized at some point over the last twenty years that it's not a fitting usage.

It never bothered me. Maybe because I never really knew what it meant in the first place

While re-reading RotE, I came across a passage wherein SRD describes the ur-Vile language as

Spoiler

"brackish," which I take to mean - in that context - "impure" or "polluted."

I think it's safe to say that SRD has used 'roynish' more often than any author in the history of writing, perhaps more than any person has ever used it in any context.

Language evolves, so I submit to you (KW, the world) that SRD has caused the meaning of roynish to take an evolutionary leap, and that it now means 'like an ur-vile', and whatever vision you have of an ur-vile, that is exactly what roynish now means.

But only ur-viles in the first and second chronicles,

Spoiler

when they were baddies.

Stonemaybe wrote:Language evolves, so I submit to you (KW, the world) that SRD has caused the meaning of roynish to take an evolutionary leap, and that it now means 'like an ur-vile', and whatever vision you have of an ur-vile, that is exactly what roynish now means.

But only ur-viles in the first and second chronicles,

Spoiler

when they were baddies.

Spoiler

This spawn of the Demondim is still a baddie, and thus, remains roynish!

Hmm, interesting question. The word "roynish" developed its own meaning in my feeble mind during reading of the Chrons. It's a conceptual meaning, not really something that is easy to describe. It brought to my mind an image of something lowly, gangrel, dark, primitive, instinctual more than intelligent, and for some reason voo doo dancing and curses and stuff comes to mind. More animal and less cultured. More following than leading. More darkly spiritual than logical. More alien-like. I think of the creatures in the "Alien" movie as being somewhat the same as the ur-viles. Driven to destroy and survive, but not having any desirable reason to do so. Sorry, I babble..........

Sorry, I babble..........

Actually you make sense! I'd never thought to compare my image of ur-viles and Alien, but now I think of it, there are certainly resemblances!

"A complete and universal English dictionary", 1792, lists

To ROYNE: to gnaw, to bite.

ROYNISH: paltry, scurvy, mean.

I think that mean and troublesome might originally have had the connotation of something that gnaws on you or bites you. Roynish fleas. Perhaps the notions of scabby and mangy refer to the itching (and thus biting) sense.

It lists the french rogner, rogneux as the origin of these words.