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Insequent evolution of Unfettered Ones?
Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 5:11 pm
by Probot
Hello all, today is my first day as a member on Kevin's Watch... long overdue! I've been reading these discussions for a long while, and am glad to be a part of it all. You guys are great, thanks to you all... nothing as inspiring or profound as minds at work.
As I read, and re-read ROTE and FR, the sense of individuality, the "earned" knowledge, and the above average skills and abilities of the Insequent seem to harrow
back to a group from the 1st and 2nd Chronicles... the Unfettered Ones. Having lost the majority of the 1st and second Chronicles to life at large, bending, lending, or otherwise, I'm at a loss for research materials to quell my mind! Any thoughts, evidence leaning toward or against the Unfettered unionizing in a sense over the last millenia? And I believe we have an Unfettered healer helping TC in the past whose identity remains in shadow... considering how "time flies" in the 3rd Chronicles... could it be our own healer at large Linden Avery?
Once again thanks for the thoughts and passion you guys exhibit, and sorry for any newbie mistakes!
Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 5:33 pm
by AjK
Greetings and welcome to KW, Probot!
To your interesting question, I guess I always thought that the Insequent were a specific race.
Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 7:29 pm
by Vraith
AjK wrote:Greetings and welcome to KW, Probot!
To your interesting question, I guess I always thought that the Insequent were a specific race.
They are...and they pre-date humans who use Earthpower...the Unfettered, even the Old Lords...remember that the Theomach is already very powerful when he meets Berek, very shortly after Berek "discovers" Earthpower. [...they may be as old as the world itself, like the Elohim...but that's speculation.]
Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 8:28 pm
by Demondime-a-dozen-spawn
But isn't Berek's meeting the The Theomach a direct result of the Theomach's traveling in time? We really don't know "when" he is from.
But the Insequent existed at least back to before the time of Kevin Landwaster, because the Haruchai encountered them before they met Kevin.
That alone tells me that the Insequent are not "evolved" Unfettered.
Interesting idea though.
Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 8:47 pm
by dlbpharmd
The Theomach was not a time traveler. He lived in Berek's time.
Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 8:51 pm
by Demondime-a-dozen-spawn
Isn't it mentioned somewhere by the Mahdoubt (or was it the Harrow) that the Theomach was the only Insequent who had mastered time?
But you're certainly right that the Theomach was already there in Berek's time when Linden and Co. arrived. I was in error in that sense.
Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 9:44 pm
by wayfriend
The Theomach has timeloose abilities, he just can't travel through time as the Mahdoubt can. He has some sort of fast-shift ability. But more importantly it seems he can clearly see the future.
Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 10:22 pm
by dlbpharmd
Jeffrey Phelps: Mr. Donaldson,
In Fatal Revenant, the Theomach of the Insequent appears. The Insequent are named so probably because of their ability to travel through time, with out effecting the stability of the Arch of Time. The Insequent appear to have the ability to so profoundly change the future, and even a little change, could prove to be destructive, yet the Arch appears to be untouched by their efforts. The Arch of Time contains and preserves the people and the history of the Creator's Land, in which the Theomach theorizes, ..."Yet I deem the Earth, and all within it the Land, were formed as habitation where living beings may gaze upon the wonderment and terror, and seek to emulate or refuse them"... This statement, (having a certain reference to the story of Genisis by the creator of the real Earth), indicates the Theomach does not personally know the Creator, and so may also cause the destruction of the Arch of Time by his "meddling" in the past. How do the Insequent's efforts not ultimately cause the destruction of the Land or The Arch of Time, when their efforts have not been defined by the Creator? (or have they?).
Not to get insidiously drawn into Yet Another Creator discussion, I'll just make two quick points. 1) The Insequent are *not* so named because they can travel through time. Very few of them can do so. (E.g. both the Harrow and the Vizard cannot.) Each has his/her own area(s) of expertise; and some types of study automatically preclude others. 2) The Theomach is not known to travel through time (at least in any significant increments). When he encounters Berek, he is living in his "natural" time: he is not meddling in his own past. His *awareness* of time is vast; but that's a different form of knowledge.
(03/04/2009)
Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 10:39 pm
by Demondime-a-dozen-spawn
Straight from the Ranyhyn's mouth. Quote speaks for itself. Can't argue with that.
Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 1:40 am
by matrixman
Probot wrote:Any thoughts, evidence leaning toward or against the Unfettered unionizing in a sense over the last millenia?
The Unfettered remain some of the most mysterious characters in the Chronicles, so much so that you could make up almost anything about them. However, I don't think it would have been in their nature to join together. The whole purpose of "unfettering" was to free oneself from the "union" represented by the Council of Lords. Why would the Unfettered, scattered as they are, reverse themselves and decide to give up their personal freedom and private vision? I'm not opposed to the idea of the Unfettered getting together (actually, that would be fairly awesome), but you'd have to write up a plausible story for why they'd do it.
And I believe we have an Unfettered healer helping TC in the past whose identity remains in shadow... considering how "time flies" in the 3rd Chronicles... could it be our own healer at large Linden Avery?
I do love how the "From the Depths" chapter in FR evokes the scene with the Unfettered healer in TPTP, but no, I don't think she and Linden are the same. Maybe SRD wanted to hint at some parallel between the choices the Unfettered healer in TPTP made, and the choices that Linden has made or has yet to make in her own journey. (Or maybe I just made that up...)
Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 1:42 pm
by Probot
In the words of Bartholamew, "There's your answer fishbulb." Thanks for the indulgence!
Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 9:33 pm
by Orlion
Though they may not be the same, I can see that an encounter with the Insequent may have inspired the Act of Unfettering somehow. Think on it, all the Insequent work to achieve their own personal vision, which is what they have directly in common with the Unfettered. The Old or Newer Lords would not even have to know that they met an Insequent, only that they met someone very lorewise who attributed this to having focused on personal goals...
Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:32 pm
by Vraith
Orlion wrote:Though they may not be the same, I can see that an encounter with the Insequent may have inspired the Act of Unfettering somehow. Think on it, all the Insequent work to achieve their own personal vision, which is what they have directly in common with the Unfettered. The Old or Newer Lords would not even have to know that they met an Insequent, only that they met someone very lorewise who attributed this to having focused on personal goals...
Interesting thought...I recall from somewhere that history 'adapted' to Linden's presence/actions by incorporating her into the 'unfettered' tradition, and the Theomach was involved in this...
Unfortunately, I can't rememember if that was speculation by someone on the Watch, or if it was actually in the text...damn, I suddenly feel like Steven Wright..."I remember once that I....no wait...that wasn't me"..."so the other day I...oh wait..that was four years ago"
Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 2:36 am
by hearthrall antonicus
Vraith wrote:Orlion wrote:Though they may not be the same, I can see that an encounter with the Insequent may have inspired the Act of Unfettering somehow. Think on it, all the Insequent work to achieve their own personal vision, which is what they have directly in common with the Unfettered. The Old or Newer Lords would not even have to know that they met an Insequent, only that they met someone very lorewise who attributed this to having focused on personal goals...
Interesting thought...I recall from somewhere that history 'adapted' to Linden's presence/actions by incorporating her into the 'unfettered' tradition, and the Theomach was involved in this...
Unfortunately, I can't rememember if that was speculation by someone on the Watch, or if it was actually in the text...damn, I suddenly feel like Steven Wright..."I remember once that I....no wait...that wasn't me"..."so the other day I...oh wait..that was four years ago"
Good Steven Wright quote!!!!!!!
Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 11:57 am
by Demondime-a-dozen-spawn
dlbpharmd quoted SRD wrote:The Theomach is not known to travel through time (at least in any significant increments). When he encounters Berek, he is living in his "natural" time: he is not meddling in his own past. His *awareness* of time is vast; but that's a different form of knowledge.
Demondim-spawn wrote:Straight from the Ranyhyn's mouth. Quote speaks for itself. Can't argue with that.
Call me pedantic, but after thinking a bit about this, I'm wondering if what SRD said there is literally backed up by the actual story.
"If it ain't in the story, it ain't in the story."
I'm of the opinion that once a work is published, the *facts* of the story take precedent over the author's *authority on the subject*.
Of course, with two books yet to come, Donaldson's statement could well be an inadvertent spoiler.
This has gotten to me to the point that I submitted a question of my own about it to the GI. Of course, the next book will probably be available by the time my query comes up in the queue.
Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 9:10 pm
by IrrationalSanity
Vraith wrote: recall from somewhere that history 'adapted' to Linden's presence/actions by incorporating her into the 'unfettered' tradition, and the Theomach was involved in this...
Yes, it was explicit in the text. The Madobut said "He made of you the first of the Unfettered."
Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 4:43 pm
by danlo
I seem to remember someone saying that Linden's aid of Berek's wounded could very well become construed (by the Theomach) as the first act of an Unfettered in the Land's history. Or at least set the groundwork for their place in Lore.
Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 5:16 pm
by wayfriend
Demondim-spawn wrote:Call me pedantic, but after thinking a bit about this, I'm wondering if what SRD said there is literally backed up by the actual story.
"If it ain't in the story, it ain't in the story."
I'm of the opinion that once a work is published, the *facts* of the story take precedent over the author's *authority on the subject*.
There is no actual story in which it is said that the Theomach time-travels.
And all his actions are possible if you accept the explanation that he can see the future from his own time.
So if someone jumps to the conclusion that the Theomach can time travel, as the Mahdoubt can, and SRD then points out that that is not correct, I think that that is all the confirmation you can expect.
Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 6:39 pm
by Probot
Hmmm...
So, catch me if I'm wrong, but Linden is the first officially titled "Unfettered One." (I always loved the lil' prose piece... Unfettered, free...) This is interesting, but how does the Unfettered "tradition" as it were, continue after Linden's unintentional christening as the first? They are Unfettered ONES, plural, after all. Who is the second? This character no doubt will hold presidence in history, as this character will actually, knowingly, carry that titles torch. The Unfettered and The Insequent are forever linked, through the Theomachs machinations, and he seems to have created this lifestyle option single handedly. We have Unfettered peppered throught Chron. 1&2, and one with the internal hellfire to keep Thomas Covenant alive. What can it all mean!?!? SO glad to have joined the Watch!!!
The first Unfettered
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:07 pm
by Wheelwash Whitecap
It was put forth....Theomach would explain Lindens act of helping Bereks wounded, as an act of the unfettered one, to explain her presence and her lore. He could tell Berek and his followers anything to smooth out ripples in the timeline.
It certainly is plausible that this is how the unfettered ones started.
