Lord Foul's Bane question about Atiaran

[Earthpower]

This is on page 178 of my book when Covenant could clearly see the moral struggle that wasted her, the triple conflict between her abhorrence of him, her fear for the land, and her dismay for her own weakness. The sight shamed his heart and he said to her Don't give up.

Her reply:

Give up! If I gave up I would stab you were you stand! (she pulls out her knife) She said : Since the celebration - since you permitted wraiths to die - this blade has cried out for your blood. Other crimes I could set aside.

My question is...How is permitting wraiths to die worse then his rape of her daughter. I'm a bit puzzled by this.

[Demondime-a-dozen-spawn]

The only explanation I can come up with is that Atiaran considered Covenant's rape of Lena a crime against Lena and her family and Mithil Stonedown, while she felt his allowing the killing of the Wraiths to be a crime against the whole of the Land.

The irony of it is that Covenant was guilty as charged of the former but could do nothing to prevent the latter.

[CovenantJr]

I've always interpreted it as a demonstration of just how important the people of the Land consider the Land itself, compared to themselves.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I concur. Atiaran could get to the point where she could actually forgive Covenant for what he did to Lena; the Oath of Peace would ultimately require her to do so. Although Lena was hurt, she could get past it and still have a life full of love and beauty.

Covenant's failure to assist the Wraiths meant that their beauty was extinguished forever. In her mind, that is a much worse crime.

It is still an interesting situation: to Atiaran, a non-action that Covenant failed to perform is worse than the action that he did perform.

[Relayer]

She also sees, as she's stated in other contexts, that Covenant's presence in the Land is bigger than her, Lena, or any other person... that the supposed "2nd coming" of Berek is of a magnitude that she does not feel qualified to judge his actions, similar to the way the Test of Truth is only as strong as the tester.

Atiaran's feeling is reinforced when she realizes that although Lena had been raped, she chose to hide it until they had left the Stonedown.

Like CovJr said, it shows the overriding importance the people bestow to the Land itself. To Atiaran, no possible champion of the Land could allow something as heinous as the slaughter of the sacred Wraiths.

[Staff Envy]

Could it be that the "Last Straw' had been broke? A person can only take so much.

[Ur Dead]

Atiaran spent time at the Lorestat. There she learn just enough about the history of the Land to give her presumtions.

White Gold which released the Wild magic was far beyond her knowledge, (as well as the rest of the Learded and Lords)although she heard and knew something of it.
While guiding TC to Revelstone, she did experience a release by TC(Wild Magic) (TC did it unknowningly) when a storm assaulted both of them.

She felt that Thomas was holding back the power he (She thought he knew he) had, and refused to save the wraiths when the need was apparent to her.

He was beyond the Oath of Peace and should have acted to save something she learned to love while a student. She never learn the
total lore of the Land and never developed a Lords outlook. She fell into a despair of her own ignorance.
The crime against her daughter was horrendous indeed but she had the knowledge of the paradox, but not enough. Nor did she know the mindset of a leper.

Gives a new prespective on why she tried to summon him. For the rape of Lena or to answer for a descreation of an innocents.

[Earthfriend]

Great question Earthpower! And some great responses by all.

And I agree with your puzzlement, Earthpower. For me, the rape of Lena remains the worse crime Covenant commits during his time in the Land, far worse than him 'allowing' the Wraiths to be slaughtered. That was and act of ommision - like most of Covenant's percieved crimes; a failure on his part to act, to use the power of his ring.

But the rape was an act of commision, regardless of the possible excuses. It was an act he perpertrated. And yet, Atiaran is prepared to set that crime aside for the hope Covenant brings to the Land. He alone can save or doom.

But I digress. I think most of the pertinant points have been touched on already by others as to possible reasons why Atiaran - and indeed all the people of the Land - are so willing to forgive Covenant. Atiaran in particular is a person convinced of her own lack of worth, of her inability to render judgement to one such as Covenant, whose very presence threatens the entire world.

I also think it's also important to note that Covenant is in total denial about his assault on Lena at the time of Atiaran's comments here. It is not until much later, weak and exhausted, that he fully faces the enormity of his actions. Had Atiaran taken Covenant to task earlier, much of the later story would have been different; most importantly the pact Covenant makes with the Ranyhyn that saves the Quest for the Staff of Law from toal annhilation.

Damn, I love these books! It doesn't matter how many times I read them, there's still more to find and explore...

[Krazy Kat]

I've always suspected Jehannum had a part to play in the rape of Lena. I seem to remember something about Covenant's face contorting, much like other characters do when possessed by a Raver.

If I had the brains of Perry Mason, or Columbo, or Hercule Poiret, then maybe I'd take on Covenant's case for the defence. At least try for Diminished Responsibility. But realistically, I'd probably be more like the shyster lawer in the Simpson's.

Anyway, mabye Atairan was giving Covenant the benefit of the doubt. She only had Triock's word for what happened, and his 'Oath of Peace' had almost been broken. Maybe she was thinking 'innocent till proven guilty'.

good thread!

[wayfriend]

Just will add:

"Other crimes I could set aside". She had to set aside her feelings about the rape when learned about it and decided to continue guiding Covenant to Revelstone. So I think this is not just speaking figuratively; she had set aside other crimes.

I've always suspected Jehannum had a part to play in the rape of Lena.

No one's opinion is wrong, but ... one of the significant elements of the story is undermined if Covenant isn't responsible for his crime.

[Krazy Kat]

It's just an inkling I get. Something to do with Pietten, Covenant's bargain with the Ranyhan, Gay, and one or two other things as well.

Like I said, I'm no Perry Mason. I'll not pursue this further. Besides, this would be the wrong thread for that line of inquiry.

I agree, the 'message to Revelstone' was just too important for Atiaran to do otherwise.

[Blackhawk]

I think the slaughter of the wraiths was just that...the straw that broke the camels back.... Had TC not raped Lena his inability to battle urviles and save the wraiths would possibly have been overlooked or understood as weakness or inablility to control the white gold rather than a double crime ...both of which nothing less than a Raver would commit.......

[Linna Heartbooger]

Like CovJr said, it shows the overriding importance the people bestow to the Land itself. To Atiaran, no possible champion of the Land could allow something as heinous as the slaughter of the sacred Wraiths.

I liked this point about their love for the Land.

And I agree with your puzzlement, Earthpower. For me, the rape of Lena remains the worse crime Covenant commits during his time in the Land, far worse than him 'allowing' the Wraiths to be slaughtered. That was and act of ommision - like most of Covenant's percieved crimes; a failure on his part to act, to use the power of his ring.

...

Atiaran in particular is a person convinced of her own lack of worth, of her inability to render judgement to one such as Covenant, whose very presence threatens the entire world.

Interesting... does anyone remember a fascinating line in the second Chronicles, where Covenant has a revelation about himself...? His thought is something like, "He had not known because he had not WANTED to know."

If I remember correctly, in the scene with the wraiths, Covenant fusses and worries and is angry because everyone says that he must have this power, and then, after many have been slaughtered, he suddenly is overcome with passion and is able to release his white gold power to slay the attacker(s). (From personal experience, I can say that worrying about how you "can't do something" instead of trying to do it CAN be an ugly thing.) Perhaps Atiaran is angry because Covenant was not the sort of person who had a great enough desire to preserve beauty that he didn't suck it up and try and somehow fight back sooner.

Perhaps she is most angry at the thing she sees in Covenant which is a flaw that she shares. Likely, she judges herself for a "lack of love of beauty" that would have striven to press harder at the Loresraat. She probably judges herself for the choices she made in the past that result in her having "so little knowledge" at this point in time. And therefore thinks she knows what his act of omission is "made of," and about the insufficiency of good desires behind it.

[Earthpower]

Thanks for all the replies. I really don't have anything to add for I'm not very good at putting my thoughts in to text. I will say that the first time I read the books I felt sorry for TC. This time I feel sorry for everyone else that has to put up with him. I'm still waiting for him to show regret on what he did and I feel I will have to wait until the next book. TC still believes it's a dream and so keeps trying to move forward and not think on much what he did.

I do give him credit for sticking up for Atiaran when he thought Saltheart was showing disrespect toward her. This was the first time that I saw his heart show through in a big way. This makes me feel there is hope for him.

I did read the books many years ago but it's been so long it's like I'm reading them for the first time again.

[Earthfriend]

I've always suspected Jehannum had a part to play in the rape of Lena. I seem to remember something about Covenant's face contorting, much like other characters do when possessed by a Raver.

As much as I would like to be able to give Covenant such an excuse, I don't think Foul would ever allow a Raver to possess Covenant, and therefore the Wild Magic. Additionally, I don't think a Raver would have the courage to make such an attempt, but if one did, it certainly wouldn't release it's hold over Covenant so quickly and without coercion.

[Savor Dam]

As much as I would like to be able to give Covenant such an excuse, I don't think Foul would ever allow a Raver to possess Covenant, and therefore the Wild Magic.

Have to agree with Earthfriend on this one. Triock makes exactly this point to Covenant in the Colossus chapter of TPTP:

"Elena Foul-wife -- he uttered the name with horror -- now holds the white gold. She is more the master's servant than any Raver. In the hands of turiya or moksha, that power would breed rebellion. With wild magic, any Raver would throw down the master if he could, and take a new seat in the thronehall of Ridjeck Thome. But Elena will not rebel. She will not use the wild magic to free herself. She has been commanded from the dead, and her service is pure!

Since Ravers have no physical manifestation of their own and can only manipulate physical objects (including white gold rings) through the beings they possess, Foul surely would never permit a situation where a Raver would posess a white gold wielder.

Spoiler

This has potential implications for events in the Last Chronicles...which is all I dare say in this forum, even under spoiler tag.

[Krazy Kat]

The logic of the story is certainly a tough nut to crack. Like I said in the previous post, Covenant's case for the defense wouldn't be easy. But there is one important piece of evidence you all seem to have missed...and when I return from the bathroom I'll tell you all what it is.

*opens the bathroom window, climbs down the drainpipe, and jumps into a waiting taxi.*

[CovenantJr]

For me, the rape of Lena remains the worse crime Covenant commits during his time in the Land, far worse than him 'allowing' the Wraiths to be slaughtered. That was and act of ommision - like most of Covenant's percieved crimes; a failure on his part to act, to use the power of his ring.

But the rape was an act of commision, regardless of the possible excuses.

Maybe this was part of the problem with the wraith issue. Covenant took decisive action to rape Lena, yet he claimed helplessness against the ur-viles. One thing he wanted (instinctively if not consciously), the other he didn't; he didn't want the responsibility of saving the wraiths, or of carrying the power. You will act to harm a young girl but not to protect the wraiths?

Besides, with the way I believe the people value the Land, the comparison of crimes might be more like this: is it worse for a man to rape your daughter, or to stand armed yet idle, saying "it's not my problem" and looking on as someone else rapes and murders your whole family and burns down your house?

I've always suspected Jehannum had a part to play in the rape of Lena. I seem to remember something about Covenant's face contorting, much like other characters do when possessed by a Raver.

As much as I would like to be able to give Covenant such an excuse, I don't think Foul would ever allow a Raver to possess Covenant, and therefore the Wild Magic. Additionally, I don't think a Raver would have the courage to make such an attempt, but if one did, it certainly wouldn't release it's hold over Covenant so quickly and without coercion.

Agreed. If a Raver had been involved in the rape, I think we would have seen far more attempts to possess Covenant throughout the rest of the story. As I recall, no Raver ever even made the attempt (though one did with Linden). Interesting. Was it fear of his latent power? After all, by the time Linden stood beneath Mount Thunder, the Ravers had enjoyed millennia of free time to ruminate on what they learnt from their first encounters with wild magic. Or maybe there's something about Covenant as a person that precludes such attempts. He is a deeply stubborn person, and (particularly in the First Chronicles) ferociously protective of his self-control and self-discipline. Or then again, it might simply be the 'free will' thing; just as the ring can't be taken, only given, maybe direct possession of Covenant would in some way invalidate the whole set-up and bring Foul's plans to nothing - not a risk a Raver would eagerly take.

[Krazy Kat]

Fair point C.jr. But if you consider that Covenant's nerves hadn't felt the full effect of the hurtloam, (not untill Triock cut him with his knife) and he was in 'in high dudgeon', these would have been the ideal state of mind for a raver to manipulate. The wild magic was still dormant. I think it was the lightning bolt that struck his ring that awakened his power. Also, why give Jehannum a whole chapter? Why not call the chapter Soaring Woodhelvin?

*damn trains are never on time*

[Demondime-a-dozen-spawn]

Foul didn't trust his ravers enough not to keep the ring for themselves. That's stated on several occasions. Foul would never have allowed it.

Also, I agree that taking the ring by force would somehow negate it's efficacy for whomever took it. Frodo might have feared his ring being wrested from him, but Covenant never had to.

Spoiler

Linden doesn't appear to have that luxury in the current series, at least where the Masters are concerned, who threatened to take the ring by force, and probably could have, and since they had no intention of trying to use it themselves, taking the ring and being unable to weild it was moot.