Kevin's Watch

I finally watched Oldboy last night. I had been putting it off for so long, always choosing to watch something else (the name had a lot to do with it, it's too ambiguous), but I finally watched it. I was hooked from frame one. Oldboy ranks up there with Lawrence of Arabia in shot framing, out shines Eternal Sunshine in visual style/flare and finale plot twist, it's very well acted, pacing and tone is just right, script is flawless-just an astonishing film.

I've seen some asian film: Crouching Tiger, Hero, Iron Monkey, House of Flying Daggers, Last Samurai (just kidding), Seven Samurai, but it's Oldboy that has peaked my interest to the point of need. I'm still just in awe of the shots in that film. I need more.

Next on the list are Yojimbo, Ran, Roshomon and Ikiru.
Does anyone have any recommendations beyond Kurosawa? Or thoughts about asian cinema?

Have you seen Lady Vengeance, by the director of Oldboy? It's my favourite of the three Vengeance films.

Haven't yet, but just finished Battle Royale. Wow.

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote: Does anyone have any recommendations beyond Kurosawa? Or thoughts about asian cinema?

I wouldn't know where to start. Asian cinema is vibrant, experimental, and devoid of many of the tired old cliches that Hollywood thinks are part of the formula.

If you liked Old Boy, I'd suggest some more Korean films from the last decade or so. Murrin has mentioned Sympathy for Lady Vengeance, but you should also check out Sympathy for Mr Vengeance, which are both part of this thematic trilogy. Memories of Murder is an outstanding crime/police procedural drama from the same director as The Host, so it's worth seeing on that basis alone. Brotherhood of War is hands down the best war movie in the last twenty or thirty years. It's extremely visceral and has not one good thing to say or imply about war. Quite melodramatic at times, but it really is a masterpiece.

Hong Kong cinema has always been excellent. In particular, I'd recommend many of their eighties classics like A Chinese Ghost Story (the first is by far the best), a sort of adventure/romance/horror that's just enormously entertaining. John Woo's films before he went to Hong Kong are fantastic and The Killer and Hard Boiled are two of the best action films ever made. For more serious HK cinema check out all the films by Chen Kaige and Zhang Yimou, two of the most gifted directors ever. Especially watch Farewell My Concubine (banned 14 times in China) and To Live (not the same To Live as Ikiru). Wong Kar Wai is almost peerless when it comes to films about love. 2046 is probably my favourite film about love (it's not a romance, however), and I couldn't recommend it more highly.

Japanese cinema had it's zenith in the fifties and sixties (I would argue they were the best in the world at this time) and there are two many films from this era to list as recommendations. However, I will put a plug in for Kwaidan (not Kaidan), based off folk-tales compiled by Lafcadio Hearn concerning the supernatural. Modern Japanese cinema is still excellent, and they seem to be having something of a Rennaissance. My pick for the greatest still-living Japanese director would be Takeshi Kitano, also know as Beat Takeshi. Of his films, Sonatine, Hana-Bi, and Violent Cop are exceptional.

Takashi Miike is an enormously prolific director who churns out films and TV shows at a rate which would make Joe D'Amato pause for breath. Many of his films simply are not that great, though some are truly exceptional - Ichi the Killer and Audition are his two best, I would say.

I could go on for another twenty pages talking about Asian films, but I'll stop listing titles and directors before I get carried away. The bottom line is, Asian cinema is marvellous and by far the most interesting (for me) in the world at the moment. Hope this was of some use to you.

Btw, as I think Cail pointed out in another thread, Old Boy is getting the US remake treatment. Spielberg and Wil Smith are attached to the project. It's hard to imagine a more innappropriate treatment of the film than that.

Montresor wrote:Takashi Miike is an enormously prolific director who churns out films and TV shows at a rate which would make Joe D'Amato pause for breath. Many of his films simply are not that great, though some are truly exceptional - Ichi the Killer and Audition are his two best, I would say.

I agree, as within the last 10 years I have become interested in his flicks. Loved Audition, and I'd say it is a good place to start with him. I would like to add Happiness of the Katakuris, but only if you like Japanese zombie musicals.

Seven Samurai and Ran are tied for my two favorite films, with Ran's use of music (Toru Takemitsu), color, and Kabuki-like acting pushing me toward it. But Seven Samurai is a film whose drama is perfect: I've never so easily cared for characters, never seen them more lovingly built up and then torn down in the most brutal, gritty and wrenching action. Kurosawa didn't need big explosions, big effects; just some rain, horses, and spears. And that doesn't even begin to mention the actual performances, camera work, the dynamism in each scene, angles, the beauty of each set and every other light touch that makes it a classic.


Oldboy is definitely right below those two, Rashomon as well.

Lord Foul wrote:Seven Samurai and Ran are tied for my two favorite films, with Ran's use of music (Toru Takemitsu), color, and Kabuki-like acting pushing me toward it. But Seven Samurai is a film whose drama is perfect: I've never so easily cared for characters, never seen them more lovingly built up and then torn down in the most brutal, gritty and wrenching action. Kurosawa didn't need big explosions, big effects; just some rain, horses, and spears. And that doesn't even begin to mention the actual performances, camera work, the dynamism in each scene, angles, the beauty of each set and every other light touch that makes it a classic.

Well said. Seven Samurai is without a doubt my favourite film of all time. Picking a number two would be next to impossible for me. In terms of Kurosawa films, Ran is certainly up there, but next to Seven Samurai, I'd probably rate Throne of Blood, and Stray Dog in the top three.

The second time I saw Seven Samurai was in a cinema, and it was the most amazing viewing experience I've ever had with a film. Not to spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it, but when one of the samurai dies at the end, there was absolute stunned silence from the crowd. It's the one time in my life I think I could completely relate to the expression "you could hear a pin drop". A profound experience. I've never known a film to provoke such a collective impact as that.

Montresor wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:Seven Samurai and Ran are tied for my two favorite films, with Ran's use of music (Toru Takemitsu), color, and Kabuki-like acting pushing me toward it. But Seven Samurai is a film whose drama is perfect: I've never so easily cared for characters, never seen them more lovingly built up and then torn down in the most brutal, gritty and wrenching action. Kurosawa didn't need big explosions, big effects; just some rain, horses, and spears. And that doesn't even begin to mention the actual performances, camera work, the dynamism in each scene, angles, the beauty of each set and every other light touch that makes it a classic.

Well said. Seven Samurai is without a doubt my favourite film of all time. Picking a number two would be next to impossible for me. In terms of Kurosawa films, Ran is certainly up there, but next to Seven Samurai, I'd probably rate Throne of Blood, and Stray Dog in the top three.

Yeah. Ran is a personal choice, and I actually acknowledge Samurai as a superior film, but Ran's aesthetics just strike nearer to what I like: wide, overarching, almost overblown characters ripped from a Shakespeare tragedy. It's about as well done as those type of characters can get, and it's amazing to see the energy and action that the performers infuse such high demands with. The jester/fool in Ran is priceless.

I know you don't like the film, Monstressor, but I experienced a similar feeling when people clapped after the tension during Aragon-versus-Lurtz in Fellowship. Good stuff to see the crowd get carried away.

Lord Foul wrote: Yeah. Ran is a personal choice, and I actually acknowledge Samurai as a superior film, but Ran's aesthetics just strike nearer to what I like: wide, overarching, almost overblown characters ripped from a Shakespeare tragedy. It's about as well done as those type of characters can get, and it's amazing to see the energy and action that the performers infuse such high demands with. The jester/fool in Ran is priceless.

I know you don't like the film, Monstressor, but I experienced a similar feeling when people clapped after the tension during Aragon-versus-Lurtz in Fellowship. Good stuff to see the crowd get carried away.

I love Throne of Blood for the same reasons you picked Ran I think. I don't know if I've ever seen a film look so beautiful in black and white as that. The deliberately strained and unrealistic performances elevate it to high art, I think.

Ran, however, is one of the most mazing films ever made. It's just so stunning to look at, even managing to balance the visceral appeal of the siege/massacre sequence with the enormous beauty and tragedy of it.

I used to like seeing films almost exclusively on my own, until I became absorbed in the audience experience of it. Like many forms of story-telling, it's supposed to be a communal experience, which is why incidents like the one you describe while watching Fellowship are so great. This is generally why I prefer to see films at a festival because the audience members are more conscious and appreciative of the medium itself.

Anyway, back to Asian cinema...

Just finished watching Lady Vengeance. Tx for suggesting it Murrin. Was very good...though a little slow and confusing at times. Awesome cinematography and acting, especially from the lead.

I'm starting to become a little snobish concerning American cinema...

Just finished Roshomon...it's hard to critique. For 1950 it was probably breathtaking and groundbreaking...but now there's many issues-length of shots in particular (though this can be argued)...still, I enjoyed it.

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Just finished Roshomon...it's hard to critique. For 1950 it was probably breathtaking and groundbreaking...but now there's many issues-length of shots in particular (though this can be argued)...still, I enjoyed it.

It's difficult for modern cinema audiences to understand (at first glance) just how groundbreaking this film was in terms of cinematography. There were many 'firsts' set by this film (as was the case in Seven Samurai), that have been aped so many times both films can sometimes appear cinematically conventional when the opposite is in fact truth. Of course, narratively, this film has been copied many times also.

Montresor wrote:

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Just finished Roshomon...it's hard to critique. For 1950 it was probably breathtaking and groundbreaking...but now there's many issues-length of shots in particular (though this can be argued)...still, I enjoyed it.

It's difficult for modern cinema audiences to understand (at first glance) just how groundbreaking this film was in terms of cinematography. There were many 'firsts' set by this film (as was the case in Seven Samurai), that have been aped so many times both films can sometimes appear cinematically conventional when the opposite is in fact truth. Of course, narratively, this film has been copied many times also.

Also of note: I believe I once heard Asians view the movement of time differently, so that might explain the film's pace niggling you.

Oh, not the pace of the film, more the 'classic' style...keeping the camera on the face even though nothing is conveyed after the first second or two, the fights going on and on, the cutter walking through the forest was wayyyy to long with nothing happening and no symbolism or any reason I understand.

Montresor wrote:The second time I saw Seven Samurai was in a cinema, and it was the most amazing viewing experience I've ever had with a film. Not to spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it, but when one of the samurai dies at the end, there was absolute stunned silence from the crowd. It's the one time in my life I think I could completely relate to the expression "you could hear a pin drop". A profound experience. I've never known a film to provoke such a collective impact as that.

How freakin' extraordinary to have been able to see it in a cinema!! Fantastic!!!

Well, I'm not anywhere near as well-versed in these films as anyone else here. I've only seen (and own) Seven Samurai, Yojimbo, and Rashomon. I rate them in that order, although I really need to watch Yojimbo and Rashomon more. 7 is a masterpiece, though.

And, as is possibly known, I like some of the new stuff more than others here. Crouching Tiger is among my very favorite movies, Hero is fantastic, and Iron Monkey is also great.

Never heard of Old Boy or the Vengeance films.

Oldboy @ IMDb
Ebert's Take on Oldboy

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Oh, not the pace of the film, more the 'classic' style...keeping the camera on the face even though nothing is conveyed after the first second or two, the fights going on and on, the cutter walking through the forest was wayyyy to long with nothing happening and no symbolism or any reason I understand.

Keep in mind that the tracking shot of the cutter you speak of is actually one of the most technically note-worthy tracking shots in film history. It may be hard to see it, but this shot revolutionised what cameras could or could not do in the environment. It's no small feat to attempt a shot of this nature in a forest, and Rashomon presents the very first attempt to do so. The length of the shot is crucial because it conveys a sense of time and reality. The modern trend to constantly cut shots too short only achieve an awareness in their audience of the camera, they reduce immersion into the story, and make things seem unreal. However, if you really don't like such long shots, I'd suggest avoiding a lot of Japanese cinema (or any Werner Herzog movies).

As for the close-ups, the camera stays on them longer because we need to watch the progression of the character's emotions, and the way they react to what's going on off-screen. Even if they don't seem to be reacting, they are.

It's interesting that you use the word 'classic' to discuss the look of Rashomon. This is one of the films which invented the 'classic' style and, upon it's release, it's look was anything but classic.

Kurosawa directed fights the way he did because he hated the conventional sword-fight in film. He found previous representations of battles in films to be unrealistic. The fight in Rashomon is shot in the way it is because it is meant to convey the clumsiness and reluctance of real combat, not the over-edited and heroic style which is more often in vogue.

For me it wasn't the style, it was in the second and third versions where he stayed with the fights too long considering we had already seen different versions...

...and yah I know that this is one of the films that created the classic style.

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:For me it wasn't the style, it was in the second and third versions where he stayed with the fights too long considering we had already seen different versions...

...but that's the whole point.

He didn't need to stay with the fights soo long to make the point.

On another note, I've been reading reviews around the net of Oldboy. It's interesting, such a love hate thing with the critics...it makes me wonder if many people are missing what the Vengeance trilogy is really about-the true base dynamic of each film. I mean, how can one not 'get' what's really going on in Oldboy - it's almost giftwrapped in the dialogue, which I absolutely loved!!! Oh, so many wry smiles, so many heh-hehs!

And Ebert...whew...I was beginning to wonder if he had lost his marbles or been making some extra doe under the table.