Thanks for the invite Illume and David.
I am not a reader of this genre.
I am a Deist and a Deist minister.
I too am disgusted by the use of the expression, "Thank God." (inless it is used passivly without any true belief that God had anything to do with the situation as in an expression of relief as opposed to a devout believer in prayer who thinks a prayer has been answered.
I've read the posts on this thread but I want to challenge you all to reduce your thoughts a bit more. You are still caught in the thought process of God as a potter...a craftsman...molding this and that PHYSICAL object into what it is. I find this to be highly irrational (to some, even the consideration that there was a Creator is highly irrational in, and of, itself) but propose you go back further in time to the Singularity.
Quantum mechanics, to ME, is the study of Gods true word. The more we study and begin to understand, the more we, in the words of Paul Davies, understand the "mind of God."
Sure. Our understanding, inference, hypothesis, reporting and redaction of what we posit may change over time but the truth which we seek to explain; doesn't. Universes in bubbles, string theory, multiple-dimensions, etc. may or may not be true but the actual truth is there even if we do or don't discover and explain it. Take the moment just prior to the Singularity (I capitalize it because it is a religious expression to me).
In supersymmetry, there are 32 possible dimensions. It is possible that God, for lack of a better expression, interacted with our universe as a catylist to create our universe. This interaction created the lattice which is the Laws of Nature. God, at this brief moment, ceased to interact with our universe as much as a mother salmon ceases to interact with her young once the eggs are laid and protected.
Since God merely created the framework for
possibilities which exist in our universe, including, and most importantly, chaos, then we have only to thank God in a symbolic way. Our prayers fall upon ears which do not exist. It is more important to actuall do something than pray for something. Getting a group of people in common concern is a perfect example of this...but to pray? Pray for what? That cells cease dividing on their own, following genetic directions from the mitochondria? That wounds heal spontaneously without intervention? No. Hold someones hand. Play music for them. Read them a book. Have others join in common concern for that person so they are not alone in their situation, especially the family and friends of the person in dire straits.
Since my life is based on nature, logic, and reason, I've looked into intercessory prayer as part of my understanding of its efficacy towards recovery and healing. I discovered the Duke University study which not only proved that prayer was ineffective, but the group who were prayed for, fared much worse than the group who were
physically tended to by touch, and sound.
University of New Mexico, USA.
OBJECTIVE: To conduct a pilot study of the effect of intercessory prayer on patients entering treatment for alcohol abuse or dependence. DESIGN: In addition to standard treatment, 40 patients admitted to a public substance abuse treatment facility for treatment of alcohol problems who consented to participate were randomized to receive or not receive intercessory prayer (double-blind) by outside volunteers. Assessments were conducted at baseline, 3 months, and 6 months. RESULTS: No differences were found between prayer intervention and nonintervention groups on alcohol consumption. Compared with a normative group of patients treated at the same facility participants in the prayer study experienced a delay in drinking reduction. Those who reported at baseline that a family member or friend was already praying for them were found to be drinking significantly more at 6 months than were those who reported being unaware of anyone praying for them. Greater frequency of prayer by the participants themselves was associated with less drinking, but only at months 2 and 3. CONCLUSION: Intercessory prayer did not demonstrate clinical benefit in the treatment of alcohol abuse and dependence under these study conditions. Prayer may be a complex phenomenon with many interacting variables.
PMID: 9375433 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Royal Children's Hospital Mental Health Service, Parkville, Vic., Australia.
john.mathai@rch.org.au
OBJECTIVE: To investigate whether intercessory prayer had an effect on the outcomes of a group of children with psychiatric conditions, using a triple blind randomized study design. CONCLUSION: This study was unable to show any additional benefits for patients who received intercessory prayer compared to those who received treatment as usual.
PMID: 15715813 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Mind/Body Medical Institute, Department of Medicine, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA, USA.
hbenson@bidmc.harvard.edu
BACKGROUND: Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery. METHODS: Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality. RESULTS: In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups. CONCLUSIONS: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.
PMID: 16569567 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
FULL TEXT (Very interesting...If you KNEW you were being prayed for then there was a slightly better outcome...but the TRUE test...double blind showed no effects...as a matter of fact, they did worse)
www.templeton.org/pdfs/press_releases/0 ... _paper.pdf
Mayo Physician Alliance for Clinical Trials Coordinating Center, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn. 55902, USA.
OBJECTIVE: To determine the effect of intercessory prayer, a widely practiced complementary therapy, on cardiovascular disease progression after hospital discharge. PATIENTS AND METHODS: In this randomized controlled trial conducted between 1997 and 1999, a total of 799 coronary care unit patients were randomized at hospital discharge to the intercessory prayer group or to the control group. Intercessory prayer, ie, prayer by 1 or more persons on behalf of another, was administered at least once a week for 26 weeks by 5 intercessors per patient. The primary end point after 26 weeks was any of the following: death, cardiac arrest, rehospitalization for cardiovascular disease, coronary revascularization, or an emergency department visit for cardiovascular disease. Patients were divided into a high-risk group based on the presence of any of 5 risk factors (age = or >70 years, diabetes mellitus, prior myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular disease, or peripheral vascular disease) or a low-risk group (absence of risk factors) for subsequent primary events. RESULTS: At 26 weeks, a primary end point had occurred in 25.6% of the intercessory prayer group and 29.3% of the control group (odds ratio [OR], 0.83 [95% confidence interval (CI), 0.60-1.14]; P=.25). Among high-risk patients, 31.0% in the prayer group vs 33.3% in the control group (OR, 0.90 [95% CI, 0.60-1.34]; P=.60) experienced a primary end point. Among low-risk patients, a primary end point occurred in 17.0% in the prayer group vs 24.1% in the control group (OR, 0.65 [95% CI, 0.20-1.36]; P=.12). CONCLUSIONS: As delivered in this study, intercessory prayer had no significant effect on medical outcomes after hospitalization in a coronary care unit.
PMID: 11761499 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Duke Clinical Research Institute, Durham, NC 27705, USA.
kruco001@mc.duke.edu
BACKGROUND: Data from a pilot study suggested that noetic therapies-healing practices that are not mediated by tangible elements-can reduce preprocedural distress and might affect outcomes in patients undergoing percutaneous coronary intervention. We undertook a multicentre, prospective trial of two such practices: intercessory prayer and music, imagery, and touch (MIT) therapy. METHODS: 748 patients undergoing percutaneous coronary intervention or elective catheterisation in nine USA centres were assigned in a 2x2 factorial randomisation either off-site prayer by established congregations of various religions or no off-site prayer (double-blinded) and MIT therapy or none (unmasked). The primary endpoint was combined in-hospital major adverse cardiovascular events and 6-month readmission or death. Prespecified secondary endpoints were 6-month major adverse cardiovascular events, 6 month death or readmission, and 6-month mortality. FINDINGS: 371 patients were assigned prayer and 377 no prayer; 374 were assigned MIT therapy and 374 no MIT therapy. The factorial distribution was: standard care only, 192; prayer only, 182; MIT therapy only, 185; and both prayer and MIT therapy, 189. No significant difference was found for the primary composite endpoint in any treatment comparison. Mortality at 6 months was lower with MIT therapy than with no MIT therapy (hazard ratio 0.35 (95% CI 0.15-0.82, p=0.016). INTERPRETATION: Neither masked prayer nor MIT therapy significantly improved clinical outcome after elective catheterisation or percutaneous coronary intervention.
PMID: 16023511 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Department of Advanced Practice Nursing, Duke University Hospital, Durham, North Carolina 27710, USA.
seske001@mc.duke.edu
BACKGROUND: Many common medical, surgical, and diagnostic procedures performed for conscious patients can be accompanied by significant anxiety. Mind-body-spirit interventions could serve as useful adjunctive treatments for the reduction of stress. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the effects of stress management, imagery, touch therapy, remote intercessory prayer, and standard therapy on mood in patients awaiting percutaneous interventions for unstable coronary syndromes as part of the Monitoring and Actualization of Noetic Training (MANTRA) trial, which explored the feasibility and efficacy of noetic interventions on clinical outcomes in a randomized clinical trial. METHODS: A total of 150 patients were randomized to one of the five treatment conditions. Stress management, imagery, and touch therapy were administered in 30-minute treatment sessions immediately before the cardiac intervention. Intercessory prayer was not necessarily contemporaneous with these treatments. Mood was assessed by a set of visual analog scales before and after treatment for a similar length of time for the standard therapy and prayer groups. RESULTS: Analysis of complete data from 108 patients showed that stress management, imagery, and touch therapy all produced reductions in reported worry, as compared with standard therapy, whereas remote intercessory prayer had no effect on mood. The ratings of other similar moods were not affected, perhaps because of the relatively positive emotional state observed in the participants before treatment. CONCLUSIONS: The results suggest that at least some noetic therapies may have beneficial effects on mood in the course of medical and surgical interventions. Administration of these interventions was feasible even in the hectic environment of the coronary intensive care unit. Given their relatively low cost and limited potential for adverse effects, these interventions merit further study as therapeutic adjuncts.
PMID: 15084996 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
School Psychology Program, School of Education, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA 01003, USA.
shamrock@educ.umass.edu
CONTEXT: Little replicable empirical evidence on the effectiveness of prayer is available. OBJECTIVE: To explore the effect of intercessory prayer, positive visualization, and outcome expectancy on a wide range of medical and psychological measures in critically ill patients. DESIGN: 2 x 3 (expectancy x treatment) factorial study. PARTICIPANTS: 95 adult male and female volunteer hemodialysis subjects with end-stage renal disease from an outpatient clinic in Miami, Fla. INTERVENTION: Participants were randomly assigned to 1 of the 6 treatment conditions. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: A total of 20 dependent measures (10 medically based and 10 psychological) were used to assess the subjects' overall well-being. Analysis of covariance was used to control for pre-treatment differences between groups. RESULTS: Subjects who expected to receive intercessory prayer reported feeling significantly better than did those who expected to receive positive visualization (F1.93 = 5.42; P < .02). No other statistically significant main effects or interactions were found for either expectancy, intercessory prayer, or positive visualization on the remaining dependent measures. Analysis of effect sizes on all dependent measures failed to indicate even a small magnitude of effect for intercessory prayer as contrasted with expectancy on the medical or psychological variables. CONCLUSIONS: The effects of intercessory prayer and transpersonal positive visualization cannot be distinguished from the effect of expectancy. Therefore, those 2 interventions do not appear to be effective treatments.
PMID: 11565401 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
There are other areas where humans fault God. Whether these be natural disasters or "Acts of God", unfortunate incidents where life or property are affected, etc. Some Christian ministers have even stated publically that the devestation caused by Katrina was brought about by certain lifestyles. Sad.
From my Beliefnet page on prayer...
Once, I was a Christian. I was taught that I should pray; that it was part of being a good Christian; that God wanted me to pray. So I prayed. Then, I was thankful for the times I believed my prayers were "answered" and rationalize the reasons when they weren't. This was a big part of the cause for my transformation to Deist from Christian.
I entered into a discussion about the perfection of God with a fellow Christian one day and it created a seed-thought which grew. I am not a mathematician. Actually, I suck at math. It was always my worst subject as I couldn't memorize the functions. But I always had a deep respect for those who not only had a firm grasp of the maths, but embrased them and spoke to them as the maths spoke back creating this beautiful dialogue. I did very well in logic, however, and in that area of math, I found a friend.
One of my favorite science courses was astronomy. In it, we touched on astrophysics and went into depth on the Big Bang. Part of this had to do with red-shift and the Doppler effect. Red-shift has a practical application here on earth. It is used in the manufacture of speed-guns. The principle is simple. Aim the gun at a moving object and a pulse is sent out. The time it takes for the signal to bounce off of the object and return to the gun is measured and the speed is translated to MPH or KPH and is displayed. The units, when properly callibrated, offer legally acceptable measurement of violation of speed limit laws. You ask me what does this have to do with God? A lot.
You see, the bible says that the universe, and our world, were created in six days, and that the universe is 5722 years old.
If you look at verifiable data about red-shift and compare it to the bible, which we must accept based on faith, you hit upon a contradiction. A logical problem of emmense proportions.
If I were to present to you a series of facts...true facts...and you looked at all of the facts on the page and agreed that all of the facts were indeed true, then you and I would agree that the list of facts is true. However, if ONE fact is false, then we couldn't agree that the list were true anymore. One bad apple spoils the entire bunch...the entire page is false as one false fact makes the entire page false.
Many evangelical Christian sects claim biblical inerrancy. Inerrancy infers perfection. "Without error." In order for the bible to be "true," it must be spotlessly-free from ANY AND ALL arrors. Just one error makes the bible errant; no matter how trivial the error.
Since red-shift shows that the age of the universe is around 12 billion years old, this single fact negates the perfection of the bible (there are other errors but we only need one). Since the bible is false, we can assume that Judaism is false and thusly, Christianity is false. We can then deduce that prayer is false as well. What is true? What can we rationalize about God through all of this.
There are only two possibilities based on logic. God exists or God doesn't exist. I can't offer proof that God doesn't exist so I will go into the God exists preposition.
It is my preposition that God created the universe in a natural, rather than supernatural manner. The behavior of particles, left-right and up-down, implies multi-dimensional possibilities. I propose God is extra-dimensional, not supernatural.
I propose that God formulated all of the laws necessary for this universe to be created, exist, and evolve based upon those very laws. Those laws are perfect and complete as is God. Logically, since God is perfect, Gods laws are perfect, then creation is perfect. Perfection implies that no further interference is needed and that the act of creation ended when the universe was created. As an analogy, Windows in one verson with no bugs and no fixes...a perfect program.
Since creation, and the universe are perfect, then no further interaction from God is necessary...and this means that prayer is not only frivilous, it says that God is imperfect and that creation, the very work of the hand of God, is flawed and requires human prayer to combat the errors in creation.
When we see something as imperfect, it is an error in our perception, rather than an error in creation.
Everything on the universe operates on the laws of physics and they never change. Chaos may affect objects but even chaos is a part of the laws of physics. God doesn't play favorite, but, as opposed to Einsteins saying, God does play dice with the universe only it is in the fact that randomness is built into the fabric of the universe instead of throwing dice as as an active player. I don't believe God is active in our universe for to be active would infer that creation wasn't perfect and needs constant hands-on tweaking. This would make God inept, imperfect, and evil.
People make decisions based upon chemical reactions in their brain rather than some demon creature affecting their behavior. We mistake these chemical reactions as spiritual control and attribute the actions to spirits, Satan, or sadly, Gods will.
I have to deny all of that and say my belief is simple.
I believe God created the universe perfectly. Since creation is perfect, I trust in God implicitly and feel prayer insults God as being imperfect.
I have never before felt such a wonderful feeling the day I stopped praying and started trusting in God...not to micromanage life as many religions believe, but to marvel that life unfolds based upon the acts of God over 12 billion years ago...and not something done today. THAT is a mindblowing...can you fathom the idea?
I have previously discussed the perfection of God and how prayer goes against God; rather than with God.
Prayer means you are not happy with a given set of circumstances. This may be in finances, relationships, hardships, health, etc. When something hits you in the face; you pray.
For one moment, I want you to ponder this...that prayer doesn't exist. It has never been invented. To many people, Atheists, this is a fact of day-to-day life. They are happy, well-adjusted people with good jobs, great spouses, wonderful children, well-adjusted people that have the same problems as you and I, but they don't pray...and they survive trials and tribulations as much as any person who prays...how can this be? If prayer is so necessary to us as humans, then how is it that some of us have these amazingly wonderful lives without praying? Simple. Prayer doesn't work...it is an illusion.
It is simple to attribut a positive outcome to prayer and a negative one to Gods will. I never pray but I can say that prayer has done this or that to me...it doesn't make it true...it is merely my word placed over visible results.
What is true, is that those who don't pray, DO. They become active participants in their life instead of praying. When financial times get rough, they budget, tighten up their belts and watch every penny...they don't listen to a millionaire, thieving, Rolls Royce driving, mansion-owning, private jet flying, Armani suit wearing, televangelist and send them $500 in love-offering/seed gifts...they keep it! and their troubles get better. They act instead of pray. They visit the sick and hold their hands instead of praying. They get on the phone and call people, instead of praying. Prayer removes personal responsibility and throws the burden on someone else. The funny thing? Through the illusion of prayer, it is really you...this amazing creation...which does the work...not God. Think of how much closer you would be to your goal if you stopped praying and started acting.
Get off your knees, open your hands, begin to trust in God (and truly accept God as being perfect), and get to work!
I think I've said enough! (and I think you feel the same!!!)
