Kevin's Watch

"He had understood what had happened to the Colossus of the Fall. It had been an avatar of the ancient forests, erected on Landsdrop to defend against Ravers; and the Sunbane had destroyed the forests, unbinding the will and wood which had upheld for millennia that stone monolith"


I was of the belief that the Collossus had lost it's interdict way before TC ever arrived in the Land due to the felling of the forests by humans and only once during all that time to be reignited by TC when he called for help from Caer-Caveral to save him from Elenas' wrath. Therefore, if the Colossus did indeed still hold power prior to the Sunbane arriving, how did Sheol gain access to the upper land and establish himself as the Na-Mhoram?

Am I missing something here? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

A good point, I always thought the Colossus had some power during the first chronicles, though not as much as it had due to the felling of the One Forest. It was at least important enough that Foul wanted it destroyed, though it could have been more of a symbolic desecration that Foul was aiming for.

As far as Ravers are concerned, they were able to enter the upper land even in the First Chronicles, though this may have been due to them having possessed bodies beforehand... a Raver could have established itself as na-Mhoram in a similar manner.

My understanding was that the Interdict as it was reactivated in TPTP was much weaker than the original, since the Forests were still far diminished from what they once were. However, Law itself was weakened b/c the Staff was destroyed and Foul was slowly but surely warping the Earthpower the whole time between the First and Second Chronicles. I think that alone might have been enough to let Ravers slip through, especially given that the Interdict seems like a very Law-like sort of phenomenon.

You are correct, SotK. The Colossus had lost most of its power by the time of the First Chronicles, and could no longer prevent any Ravers.

But it still stood. And it still had a will, albeit almost ineffectual.

"What had happened to the Colossus of the Fall" does not refer to that earlier demise. It refers to something Caer-Caveral said to Covenant earlier (but which he did not really explain at the time):

In [u]The Wounded Land[/u] was wrote:"There is no Morinmoss." Caer-Caveral's melody became bleakness and pain. "The Colossus has fallen."

Prior to the Sunbane, the Lords replenished the forest.

In [u]The Wounded Land[/u] was wrote:All the old forests-Grimmerdhore, Morinmoss, Garroting Deep, Giant Woods-had thrived to such an extent that Caerroil Wildwood, the Forestal of Garroting Deep, had believed his labor ended at last, and had passed away; and even the darkest trees had lost much of their enmity for the people of the Land.

It's conceivable that the power of the Colossus was somewhat restored at this time.

And then Sunbane came, and finished it off utterly. When the forests were destroyed utterly. It fell.

And it wasn't until the Soothtell that TC put all this together and understood.

That passage from TWL is referring to things in this way. Or so I believe.

I could not have said it better. I can only add that I believed that if even one tree remained in the Land, the Colossus would not have completely fallen. But despite the efforts of Hamako's Rysh(sp?), despite Andelain, the Colossus still fell, a testimony to the corruption of Despair.

Makes sense Wayfriend and I had thought of that myself, however how did Sheol gain access to the Council and establish himself as the Na-Mhoram if the Colossus was somewhat restored as you say due to the Lords healing of the forests over the centuries. Also, surely the Lords should have perceived the Ravers initial presence after so many centuries of peace and restoration and insight. Perhaps it is as Orlion said in that he had come in human form and went unnoticed.

Anyway, I'm probably just being a bit picky on all this. Thanks all for the input.

All true, but the colossus DID destroy the host body.

It seems that proximity was essential for the interdict in it's current state.

Spoiler

BTW, does anyone remember the 'gender' of the elohim that formed the colossus?

wayfriend wrote:You are correct, SotK. The Colossus had lost most of its power by the time of the First Chronicles, and could no longer prevent any Ravers.

But it still stood. And it still had a will, albeit almost ineffectual.

"What had happened to the Colossus of the Fall" does not refer to that earlier demise. It refers to something Caer-Caveral said to Covenant earlier (but which he did not really explain at the time):

In [u]The Wounded Land[/u] was wrote:"There is no Morinmoss." Caer-Caveral's melody became bleakness and pain. "The Colossus has fallen."

Prior to the Sunbane, the Lords replenished the forest.

In [u]The Wounded Land[/u] was wrote:All the old forests-Grimmerdhore, Morinmoss, Garroting Deep, Giant Woods-had thrived to such an extent that Caerroil Wildwood, the Forestal of Garroting Deep, had believed his labor ended at last, and had passed away; and even the darkest trees had lost much of their enmity for the people of the Land.

It's conceivable that the power of the Colossus was somewhat restored at this time.

And then Sunbane came, and finished it off utterly. When the forests were destroyed utterly. It fell.

And it wasn't until the Soothtell that TC put all this together and understood.

That passage from TWL is referring to things in this way. Or so I believe.

thats how i saw it also... I just got done with that section of TWL yesterday and the Colosus died with the death of the forests. I dont know what became of the ravers but i assume they were reduced as was Lord Foul...or were they? if the Colosus got stronger after the death of C. Wildwood then they would have been banished to the lower land.. especially since the forests had grown larger after TPTP.

There is no knowing which of the phases of the sunbane came first. If even a couple of hours of desert can undo six days of fertility, (see TWL just after Stonemight Woodhelvin), then a sun of desert would kill the majority of the forest in under a day.

Good bye collosus before there was even a chance to respond.

That's my take anyway.

BH: the forests may have been restored, but it is unclear if they ever again achieved the sentience that they once had. I don't know if just growing more trees is sufficient, but I know that Donaldson doesn't like the waning of the world to be undone easily. (By way of example, creating the new Staff of Law doesn't by itself cure the Sunbane, or restore the Laws of Death or Life.)

It seemed to me that Caerroil Wildwood was content that the forests were out of danger and well cared for, and no longer needed the kind of defensive guardian that the forestals were. That doesn't mean that the sentience of the forest was restored.

It may be that that kind of thing just takes more time than 3.5 millennia.

So the restoration of the forests may not mean that the Colossus was restored to its former strength. And the Ravers might not have been pushed back into the Lower Land at all.

As to the Ravers, I think that they were reduced by the mere fact that they are dependent on their master for their will if not their power.

wayfriend wrote:BH: the forests may have been restored, but it is unclear if they ever again achieved the sentience that they once had. I don't know if just growing more trees is sufficient, but I know that Donaldson doesn't like the waning of the world to be undone easily. (By way of example, creating the new Staff of Law doesn't by itself cure the Sunbane, or restore the Laws of Death or Life.)

It seemed to me that Caerroil Wildwood was content that the forests were out of danger and well cared for, and no longer needed the kind of defensive guardian that the forestals were. That doesn't mean that the sentience of the forest was restored.

It may be that that kind of thing just takes more time than 3.5 millennia.

So the restoration of the forests may not mean that the Colossus was restored to its former strength. And the Ravers might not have been pushed back into the Lower Land at all.

As to the Ravers, I think that they were reduced by the mere fact that they are dependent on their master for their will if not their power.

your right.... I forgot it mentions the trees losing much of their enmity towards people of the land... so it sounds like after C. Wildwood died/retired they became less active for their own defense. so it would make sense that the Colosus also would sleep/retire since the Colosus was a tool of the Forestalls, however Caer Caveral did live the 3500 or so years until TCs next visit, did he keep the Colosus active just in case? also he must have gotten very good at being a forestall because he was able to use the Colosus after only 7 years of training...which makes me think there was no training but a transfer of power maybe and with that transfer came the transfer of history and knowledge..

wayfriend wrote:BH: the forests may have been restored, but it is unclear if they ever again achieved the sentience that they once had. I don't know if just growing more trees is sufficient, but I know that Donaldson doesn't like the waning of the world to be undone easily. (By way of example, creating the new Staff of Law doesn't by itself cure the Sunbane, or restore the Laws of Death or Life.)

It seemed to me that Caerroil Wildwood was content that the forests were out of danger and well cared for, and no longer needed the kind of defensive guardian that the forestals were. That doesn't mean that the sentience of the forest was restored.

It may be that that kind of thing just takes more time than 3.5 millennia.

So the restoration of the forests may not mean that the Colossus was restored to its former strength. And the Ravers might not have been pushed back into the Lower Land at all.

As to the Ravers, I think that they were reduced by the mere fact that they are dependent on their master for their will if not their power.

Thanks Wayfriend, that makes sense to me.

In TWL chapter 19

His (LF) Ravers shared his recovery

So they gained strength alongside Foul. What if the Ravers had gained access another way, not via Landsdrop, (maybe via the Northron Climbs and Gaurds Gap?) this might bypass the Interdict line.