Kevin's Watch

Hi all!

I was wanting an Advice Thread for the Watch, seeing as we can all use some input sometimes from each other, and I know I enjoy hearing your opinions about many things, and I value your thoughts. Please feel free to post about anything you'd like us to mull over and get back to you on, just remember that, unless stated, we aren't professionals.

Have a seat.

...Don't mind if I do.

So my dilemma is kind of hard to talk about. It sort of feels as if once we're in relationships, it's not good to talk about the negative aspects...I feel bad talking about it, like maybe it's not the "grown-up" thing to do. /sigh

I've been living with my boyfriend for a year and a half. We've never really been comfortable together, and I feel like a lot of the problems we started with have just gotten worse....when we first got together, his intimacy issues prevented us from having that really intense exploration that most couples have, and that's hard for me because I place a lot of value on intimacy. It's been getting steadily worse, there's no reciprocation and no passion at all, he seems upset if I suggest something out of the norm like a different position or ask for his reciprocation. I feel as if I'm slowly withering away. When I bring it up, I'm considered shallow for placing so much emphasis on it and "wouldn't it be a shame to end an entire relationship because of sex" and etc etc.

I constantly feel, in this relationship, as if I'm supposed to prove that I'm worthy of my place at his side. There are all these tests and struggles and it always ends in, "I need someone better than this.." or "I don't trust your judgement" or more things to the effect of rubbing it in that he's smarter than me blah blah. Maybe he's got a point, y'know? I mean, I play WoW more than he'd like me to, but I feel like it's an escape from scrutiny and pressure. I'm not fiscally perfect like him and I don't put every extra dime in the bank, but it's not like I'm someone who buys stuff every week, and I have a small cushion in my account for now, but I don't have a career yet, y'know? I'm not bringing in good money yet. I'm not even done with school yet. I can't burn incense or listen to music above a certain volume because it's "inconsiderate" but he can throw things around and scream when he's angry at his computer or me or anything.

I want him to see someone for these issues. I can't fix him, and I never went into this relationship even remotely expecting these things. He's staunchly against therapy, and I understand where he's coming from, but what other options are there for him? For us?

Why do I feel like I'm a quitter or a failure if I back away from a situation like this? I consider myself to be a strong woman, but why is this harder than it should be? What should I do? Is this normal for a relationship, to experience these sorts of problems? Is this what a typical relationship is like? Do I need to suck it up and grow up and realize that it won't all be la la happy?

I advise you to get another couch.
That one looks as uncomfortable as hell.

Aww. Couch-dissed. :p

I thought it looked kinda comfy. lol

I think it's a lovely couch.

And I think your boyfriend may be on his way to being abusive, if he's not already there. He's not "inconsiderate" when he yells at you? That's ridiculous. And it's perfectly reasonable to "end an entire relationship because of sex." Sex is a *huge* part of a relationship.

If I'm right and he's abusive, you wouldn't be a quitter for walking away -- you'd be saving yourself. (Thus spake the voice of experience....) If he continues to refuse to get counseling, I'd walk. But that's just me....

Oh he's definitely inconsiderate when throwing a tantrum, I was just being sarcastic.

I don't know how to talk with him about therapy. He just shuts down and refuses to listen. I mean, is it my place to tell him that he should do it? I just don't see any other solution here. Things aren't getting better, they're getting worse. I can understand his criticism of therapy, I'm just at a loss for options.

First, there is the question of safety in the relationship. While I don't know enough to say that he is abusive (or even on that path), it does seem that he may have some anger control issues.

Kaydene wrote: ...he can throw things around and scream when he's angry at his computer or me or anything.

This is not good. Being loud can be an acceptable way to vent, but throwing things concerns me.

Second, there are pretty clearly issues here with him not being supportive of your self-worth. Yes, this is primarily something you have to generate for yourself, but a partner's role ought to be to help you build it up, not tear it down or test you for "worthiness." You are still young, a student, and not yet fully in the professional world. It sounds like maybe he has made that transition and is somewhat lording it over you. Even if you are not on equal footing in the world, between the two of you, you have to treat each other as equals.

Then there are the intimacy issues, both sexual and hopes/dreams/spiritual. If this aspect is not meeting your needs after a year and a half, and he is stonewalling your attempts to explore, this is another red flag. You are too young to wither -- and may you always be too young inside to wither! If the two of you cannot discuss these matters and adjust, you will break each other's hearts somewhere down the road.

Obviously, I know very little about you and far less about him. His perspective has not even been considered, nor do I suggest bringing him here, at least as things now stand. It is quite possible that trying to encourage him to accept any sort of therapy will only stiffen his resistance. Some people cannot deal with even the most sincerely offered and non-threatening attempts at outside facilitiation of mutual friction points.

However, you really have to either find a path for the two of you to work through these matters and find acceptable middle ground, or you are going to have to part. Committing to what you have now won't heal the problems and will make it far harder on both of you when/if you decide you do not belong together.

Above all, both of you need to remember that it is not personal failure if you cannot make this work. If you are not right together, part amicably and each find someone who is right. There is someone out there; don't cling to a relationship that you both know is less than either of you deserve.

You sound somewhat miserable. Life is too short to continue being unhappy, put on the brakes and get off the bus.

Kaydene wrote: I mean, is it my place to tell him that he should do it? I just don't see any other solution here. Things aren't getting better, they're getting worse. I can understand his criticism of therapy, I'm just at a loss for options.

It is your place to suggest things because you're in the relationship as well and are profoundly effected by his 'inconsiderations.' If he is not willing to make compromises to benefit you as well as himself, he is not looking for any meaningful relationship. Remember, what's important to you is every bit as integral in a relationship as what's important to him. Like others have stated, you have your own life to live, and breaking off a relationship because it isn't improving upon your life qua man (or woman ) is nothing to be shameful of, it just means it wasn't going to work out.

As to why this is harder then it should be, it's normal. We get into a short of routine that becomes a comfort zone, IMO, and it's difficult to change that since we tend to be creatures of habit. But hey, just because it's difficult, doesn't mean that it won't be worth it or necessary.

Kaydene wrote:When I bring it up, I'm considered shallow for placing so much emphasis on it and "wouldn't it be a shame to end an entire relationship because of sex" and etc etc.

I'm going to focus on this part for a minute. It's easy to think of concerns about sex as shallow, and there's some sense in that, but we shouldn't forget that in a relationship sex functions as an expression of intimacy as well. If there are problems there (that is, problems of attitude or interaction rather than physiology or medicine), not only is it probably symptomatic of deeper problems, it can also be a source of them. If you feel your boyfriend isn't reciprocating or he lacks passion, it's not entirely dissimilar to if he, say, stopped speaking to you. Sex is another form of expression, and in that sense it's not as shallow as some might think.

Overall, I have to support what some others here have said. You're miserable, and from how you've described it I'm not sure it can be fixed - and, crucially, I'm far from convinced that you want to fix it. Your whole post, from beginning to end, seems to be crying out that you want to escape. That would be my advice. Finish it and leave. Sunbaneglasses is right; life is too strictly rationed to waste it being miserable. And that's not selfish - it's wise. Plus, if you're miserable your boyfriend is probably miserable too. You'll be doing both of you a favour, even if he doesn't necessarily agree at first.

With regard to his seeking therapy: you can't force him. He has to want to go. If he doesn't want to, then even getting therapy wouldn't help. It'll only help him if he allows it to. You've done all you can for him on that front.

It may sound callous, but cut him loose and move on. That's my suggestion.

Kaydene wrote: So my dilemma is kind of hard to talk about. It sort of feels as if once we're in relationships, it's not good to talk about the negative aspects...I feel bad talking about it, like maybe it's not the "grown-up" thing to do. /sigh

Actually, you've got it backwards. Talking about relationships is the "grown-up" thing to do. Letting them stagnate and turn to crap because you just don't want to deal with the work a relationship takes is typical of early relationships.

To be honest, most problems in relationships boil down to this:
if the other person never changes (which in most cases never happens), is this something you could live with for the rest of whatever? That is really the biggest question to ask yourself. And the hardest to be honest with yourself about. If you already know it is "no," then end it. For this, a great lack of sex is one of those things you have to ask yourself if you can live without or at least the every few months or so that you have. It feels a bit more of a danger sign that it is a guy not wanting sex, as typically guys are more sexual beings, but maybe I'm being sexist. Not to say that it doesn't happen, but from my experience it means one of three things: 1) he has strong intimacy issues, 2) something happened in his past that has kinda messed him up sexually, or 3) he's getting his supply somewhere else. #2 is usually the more typical of the people I have dated, but results may vary. From what little I am knowing of his side, I don't see #3 as a likely reason.

So, my question to you is, have you talked to him about the way you are feeling? It really is a drag for everybody involved, but if you have any interest in making it work (this goes for him as well), it is a necessary part of adult relationships. At least working ones. It shouldn't happen every week or anything, but should happen now and again. And therapy should only be forced on someone as a last resort. Otherwise it is your choice if you want a last ditch effort to save the relationship or not, and then you can at least say you tried.
But seriously, if you've not done it already, talk to him that you are thinking of ending things because you are unhappy. Sometimes having "the talk" will make a guy try harder if he indeed wants to save things. But as I said before, ultimately it boils down to what you want to live with.

Kaydene wrote: Why do I feel like I'm a quitter or a failure if I back away from a situation like this?

Have you ever ended a relationship before? If not, then that is why you feel that way. It's not easy saying goodbye. It really sucks.

Kaydene wrote:I consider myself to be a strong woman, but why is this harder than it should be?

Because you like this guy. But you are starting to realize you may not be compatible. Or at least he isn't giving you what you want.

Kaydene wrote:Is this normal for a relationship, to experience these sorts of problems? Is this what a typical relationship is like? Do I need to suck it up and grow up and realize that it won't all be la la happy?

For the remainer, I will give a flippant short answer for each.
yes, at times yes, and maybe. A year and a half should be enough time to know that you are not happy, and are not jumping the gun at all. If you can't get him to compromise on things that are important to you, then the relationship is one sided, and not worth living in. Remember - you live there too, and you deserve to feel comfortable where you live. There are compromises, but again, and sorry to keep beating on about it, it all depends on the size box you feel comfortable in. But communicating is the best way to sum up how important it all is to him as well.

Thank you for your advice, guys. I do want to remind you that it's just my side of the story you're hearing, so maybe I'm biased about it or whatever. I heard this twice, so I want to be clear that he isn't abusive towards me, just for the record He's got a load of problems in himself, and he knows that, which is why I want to see him get help.

If I think about this from another person's perspective, I'd tell her to leave too. Being the type of person that I am (not passive at all, stands up for herself in any situation) I can't believe I'm still here. I *am* miserable. I *don't* see it getting any better without therapy on his part, but CovJ, you're right, he has to want to do it. I don't see that happening.

Anyhow, I guess that's my situation. I'll have to think on it. Thanks for your advice, Watchers.

Cagliostro wrote:
So, my question to you is, have you talked to him about the way you are feeling? It really is a drag for everybody involved, but if you have any interest in making it work (this goes for him as well), it is a necessary part of adult relationships. At least working ones. It shouldn't happen every week or anything, but should happen now and again. And therapy should only be forced on someone as a last resort. Otherwise it is your choice if you want a last ditch effort to save the relationship or not, and then you can at least say you tried.
But seriously, if you've not done it already, talk to him that you are thinking of ending things because you are unhappy. Sometimes having "the talk" will make a guy try harder if he indeed wants to save things. But as I said before, ultimately it boils down to what you want to live with.

Yeah, we've had many arguments and discussions about the way things are. When I really get down to "what do you need" sort of questions, he dodges them. When I tell him what I need from him (provided it's a civil conversation) we can discuss the problems but they don't change.

I recently put a deadline on him. While I'm not a student at the moment, I'm going back to university next fall. So I'm moving over the summer to a college town. I said that if things weren't better by then, then I didn't want him to come with me. Now he's managed to turn that into a "well, you're leave soon" and "we're breaking up soon" and "when you leave" and whatnot. I don't know if I can take this much longer, let alone wait for Summer.

I think you have a good point, Cag, it depends on individual levels of what we can take, what we want, and what we can't stand. I can't be this passive "you're right all the time" person who's happy with whatever scraps are thrown at her. I'm looking for an intense and equal relationship, and I'm just not sure he's capable of giving that to me, at least not now. I thought he was, that's why I'm with him, I guess.

I've still got some thinking to do, but thank you, Cag for your insight.

He might be avoiding therapy because he fears it'll change him, and my guess is that fear comes from a deep insecurity. And if he's screaming at you, that is being abusive. Maybe he's a great guy otherwise, but if he's not willing to look at his faults and work to improve himself, he's not ready for a relationship.

Kaydene: ditch the guy, as you have proven there's no salvaging. Then, more importantly, spend a good amount of time wondering why you stood for that for so long. (Sorry if it's brief, this is really just a "me, too.")

Kaydene wrote: Yeah, we've had many arguments and discussions about the way things are. When I really get down to "what do you need" sort of questions, he dodges them. When I tell him what I need from him (provided it's a civil conversation) we can discuss the problems but they don't change.

From my experiences, the problems typically don't change unless they are something like, "you need to get a job." Sad to say, but true. Sometime they mutate to the point where either you don't care as much anymore because you accept that as part of them, or you realize you've had enough. Or you realize that it is your problem instead of theirs. Which is what happened with one of my ex's a few years after dumping me.

But yeah, if he is playing games and testing you in stupid childish ways, and being a baby about the whole thing of you going back to university, then it sounds like he is holding you back. He is just hurt, and expressing that to you, but it doesn't mean you have to take it. Unless you are stuck in a lease and think you can put up with it until then. Then just keeping things civil until you can get the hell out is for the best.

Kaydene wrote:I'm looking for an intense and equal relationship, and I'm just not sure he's capable of giving that to me, at least not now.

If you find an intense and equal relationship, tell me how. It seems like a few years on, both parties know who would be the one to end things, provided that they don't force the other party to make that choice for them.

dANdeLION wrote:And if he's screaming at you, that is being abusive.

*ding ding ding*

That's why I said what I said in my original post. There is such a thing as verbal abuse -- it doesn't have to be fisticuffs.

Verbal abuse often goes hand-in-hand with emotional abuse, which is where you get behavior like "he's discounting my feelings" and "I can't play my music loud because it bothers him, but he can scream and yell and I'm not allowed to complain about it." Those just sounded like red flags to me. And if that stuff is happening, it typically gets worse, the longer a relationship goes on.

Okay, I'll shut up now...

kay...

i've spent 22 years in a relationship just exactly like you describe.
(it most certainly is emotional abuse, it's how he contols)
22 years.

let me say that again.

22 years trying.

from 28 to 50.

i don't know how old you are but think about those years that i spent
doing what you describe and feeling the way you describe feeling.

don't do it, kay. get out now. you can't fix him.
and believe me love, you'll be so very very sorry
and have so little to show for your efforts when you
finally, after 22 years, realized that you've accomplished
nothing.

sorry to be so negative but, altho i am glad ger lived through the
trouble he had, 22 years of dealing with him has made a wreck of me.

don't take him with you when you go, kaydene.
strike out on your own and
do what you need to do for yourself.
love will come walkin around a corner when you least expect it and
it will be marvelous. (i won't say it will be easy, but it will be worth
the trouble. i promise. )

Luci's right. My story is just as bad, so I'm not going to tell it here, but suffice it to say that I know from experience that it's better to be alone than to be locked in a relationship with the wrong person.

Speaking of being locked with someone--I need some advice on surprise buttsex. What's the best way to surprise the one you love with buttsex? Thanks.