Stories You Can Only Get From Fox

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Stories You Can Only Get From Fox

Post by Zarathustra »

Ok, the title of this thread isn't *strictly* true, especially since I'm going to start out with an AP story (in my opinion, that incongruity only makes the story's absence even more compelling, because it isn't a story produced by Fox, but rather the "objective" AP).

None of the other major news outlets are running with this one. I wonder why? Seems like pretty big news to me. Read through, decide for yourself about the absence, and then I'll give you Ki's theory at the end.
DETROIT — A leader of a radical U.S. Sunni Islam group killed in a shootout with federal agents near Detroit repeatedly told followers that the government was the enemy and they must be willing to take on the FBI — even if it meant death, authorities said.

"You cannot have a nonviolent revolution," Luqman Ameen Abdullah said, according to a 2008 conversation secretly recorded by a confidential FBI source.

Abdullah, 53, was killed Wednesday at a warehouse in Dearborn, where agents were attempting to arrest him on charges that included conspiracy to sell stolen goods and illegal possession and sale of firearms. He was one of 11 people named in a criminal complaint after a two-year investigation.

FBI spokeswoman Sandra Berchtold said Abdullah refused to surrender, fired a weapon and was killed by gunfire from agents.

The 43-page complaint described Abdullah as an extremist who believed the FBI bombed New York's World Trade Center in 1993 and the Oklahoma City federal building two years later. Abdullah beat children with sticks at his Detroit mosque, the complaint claimed, and was trained with his followers in the use of firearms, martial arts and swords.

Neither Abdullah nor his co-defendants were charged with terrorism. But he was "advocating and encouraging his followers to commit violent acts against the United States," FBI agent Gary Leone wrote in an affidavit filed with the complaint.

The FBI said Abdullah, also known as Christopher Thomas, was an imam, or prayer leader, of a radical group named Ummah whose primary mission is to establish an Islamic state within the U.S.

Abdullah told followers that it was their "duty to oppose the FBI and the government and it does not matter if they die" and to "simply shoot a cop in the head" if they wanted the officer's bulletproof vest, Leon wrote.

The affidavit also said bombs, guns and even the recipe for TNT were among Abdullah's regular topics with his allies. Group members and former members said they were "willing to do anything Abdullah instructs and/or preaches, even including criminal conduct and acts of violence," the FBI agent wrote.

But that description doesn't match what Dawud Walid, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations' Michigan chapter, said he knew of Abdullah.

"He would open up the mosque to homeless people. He used to run a soup kitchen and feed indigent people," Walid said. "I knew nothing of him that was related to any nefarious or criminal behavior."

Walid said Abdullah had a wife and children. A phone number for the family had been disconnected.

Ummah believes that a separate Islamic state in the U.S. would be controlled by Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin, formerly known as H. Rap Brown, who is serving a life sentence in a federal prison in Colorado for shooting two police officers in Georgia in 2000, Leone said.

Al-Amin, a veteran of the black power movement, started the group after he converted to Islam in prison.

"They're not taking their cues from overseas," said Jimmy Jones, a professor of world religions at Manhattanville College and a longtime Muslim prison chaplain. "This group is very much American born and bred."

Abdullah's mosque is in a brick duplex on a residential street in Detroit. A sign on the door in English and Arabic reads, in part, "There is no God but Allah." The mosque was located elsewhere in the city until the property was lost in January because of unpaid taxes.

When the eviction took place, a search turned up empty shell casings and large holes in the concrete wall of a "shooting range," Leone said.

Seven of the 10 people charged with Abdullah were in custody, including a state prison inmate, the U.S. attorney's office said. Three were still at large. Another man not named in the complaint also was arrested.

The FBI built its case over two years with the help of confidential sources close to Abdullah who recorded conversations and participated in undercover operations involving the sale of furs, laptop computers, televisions, energy drinks and power tools.

Abdullah received at least 20 percent of any profit and claimed the "Prophet Muhammad said that it is okay to participate in theft; as long as that person prays, they are in a good state," Leone wrote in the affidavit.

Imad Hamad, regional director of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee in Dearborn, said the FBI briefed him about the arrests.

"We know that this is not something to be projected as something against Muslims," Hamad said.
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,570146,00.html

How much do you want to bet that if this happened on Bush's watch, it would be everywhere? It would be proof of how tyrannical our Republican-led government is, shooting minorities and religious leaders in its war on terror.

Just look at the way this story ends. Forget for a moment the outrageous fact that our FBI feels it must reassure anti-discrimination groups before it makes an arrest (since when does our FBI report to advocacy groups?). But the AP feels it's important enough to inform us that this shootout isn't anti-Muslim. They are acutely aware of how this looks, and are taking pains to sway public opinion about it even as they report it. But that AP disclaimer probably isn't enough for the other news sources. They aren't taking the chance (at the moment) of making Obama look bad to the Muslim community, so they aren't reporting it.
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Post by Cail »

I've got a slightly different take.

Is there really much (if any) difference here between this guy and David Koresh?

Given the shitstorm over the way the Waco fiasco was mishandled, I think there was probably a desire to keep this latest screwup covered up.
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Post by Zarathustra »

As time goes on, more news outlets will probably cover it. I heard about it last night, checked half a dozen of the "major" news sites this morning, and none of them (but Fox) had it. Google search revealed that Christian Science Monitor and a Chinese newspaper was covering it. A quick check just a few minutes ago revealed that MSNBC has just picked it up, too.

Cail, interesting theory.
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Post by Avatar »

Interesting point Cail.

I dunno Malik...I could think of reasons for it not appearing under Bush's admin too. I suppose it depends on who's running the media. ;) (Hell, come to think of it, a liberal media could still spin this so the blame was on the previous admin if they wanted to.)

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Post by finn »

Am I missing something here because this looks like a gross distortion Malik!

The story is not an AP story it is a Fox News story. AP are given an acknowledgement for contributions to the story, by Fox News on the Fox news site. AP have the story and Fox have used this as the basis for their piece, this is not a reproduction of the story this is the Fox spin on the story.

Dodging the question by switching threads will not do Malik. You've made veiled and sarcastic remarks about AP and despite several times asking for you to clarify, you've not done so. I have no axe to grind here, if AP are playing sides well OK; I am saying I don't know but am not prepared to dismiss a news agency which should be in the business of supplying raw un-spun news without some evidence that they are not independent.

Is this what you are saying Malik/Ki or not and if you are what is the basis of the accusation?
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Post by Cail »

No Finn, it's an AP story.
By ED WHITE
Associated Press Writer

DETROIT (AP) -- The FBI is trying to determine whether members of a radical Detroit-area Islamic group were homegrown jihadists or merely a "bunch of thugs with bluster," a congressman said Thursday. One thing is certain: They are not mainstream Muslims, the agency said.
Luqman Ameen Abdullah skimmed 20 percent of the profit off the furs, electronics and other items his followers fenced, and he preached that it was OK for them to steal as long as they prayed, FBI agent Gary Leone wrote in an affidavit filed with a criminal complaint against 11 group members.
Abdullah, 53, was killed Wednesday in a shootout with agents after the FBI raided a suburban warehouse the group used. Eight members, including Abdullah's son, have been arrested and authorities were seeking the public's help in capturing the other two. The group members are charged with various federal crimes, chiefly conspiracy to sell stolen goods.
The FBI says Abdullah, also known as Christopher Thomas, was an imam, or prayer leader, of a local faction of Ummah, a group that seeks to establish an Islamic state within the U.S. Authorities say Abdullah preached hate for the government and encouraged his followers to commit violence, especially against police and federal agents.
According to the affidavit, Abdullah told a confidential FBI source that if the government messed with him, "it will be straight up war."
Andrew Arena, the head of the FBI's Detroit office, stressed Thursday that Abdullah's mosque, Masjid Al-Haqq, was in no way representative of the Detroit area's large Muslim community.
"This is a very hybrid radical ideology. I don't know that I'd call it a religion," Arena said.
Among Arab-Americans, there's a fear "this is going to be portrayed as another al-Qaida sleeper cell in the United States and this is going to bring unwanted attention. ... That's certainly not the way we feel," Arena said.
The government has not charged Abdullah's followers with terrorism-related charges, and Arena and U.S. Attorney Terrence Berg declined to comment about whether they planned to do so. A criminal complaint is a temporary charge that typically is followed by an indictment.
Berg said Abdullah's group's anti-government beliefs motivated them to commit crimes, but he declined to elaborate.
Rep. Peter Hoekstra of Michigan, the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, said he talked to FBI Director Robert Mueller and was told the agency was trying to determine if the men were a "bunch of thugs with bluster" or possible homegrown jihadists.
Ummah is a movement with no apparent central religious authority, so it's difficult to say what the group's factions teach in their mosques.
In Warren, a Detroit suburb, local imams met privately with Arena and Berg to discuss the arrests. They were joined by Imam Mutawaf Shaheed of Cleveland, who identified himself as a representative of Ummah. He said the mission is to "spread charity, good faith and understanding about Islam" - not overthrow the government.
The FBI said at least five of the 11 people charged by the government have felony convictions, including Abdullah, who was convicted of assault and carrying a concealed weapon in Detroit in 1981.
Gary Porter, 59, was arrested Wednesday at A.L. Holmes Elementary School in Detroit, where he teaches gym. He's charged with conspiracy and being an ex-convict in possession of guns or ammunition.
Two suspects were still at large: Yassir Ali Khan, 30, of Warren and Ontario, and Mohammad Philistine, 33, of Ontario.
Abdullah's mosque is at a two-family flat next to a boarded-up house in Detroit. His group was evicted from another location this year because of nonpayment of property taxes.
Jamil Ibm Rafael, 60, identified himself as the mosque's lone security officer. He said the FBI's portrayal of Abdullah was "fabricated," but he acknowledged that members often speak out against the government.
"They are making up stuff. It's a war against Islam," Rafael said of authorities.
Arena said a search of a Detroit duplex where Abdullah lived turned up weapons, including an M-16 assault rifle.
"The person I knew and the person who lives here is not the person ... that is on TV with all the allegations," said Joseph Taylor, 44, who lived above Abdullah for about 10 years.
The FBI penetrated his group with the help of confidential informants who recorded conversations with Abdullah. A year ago, the FBI hatched an undercover operation in which Abdullah and others believed they were selling stolen goods worth more than $5,000.
The FBI said Abdullah received at least 20 percent, telling allies that it's the way "dirty money is purified."
There's no substansive difference between the AP story and the Fox one (which, as is custom in all news agencies, summarizes the AP wire).
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Post by finn »

Thanks Cail, that was not linked but it really does make my point!

Here's what AP said.....
DETROIT (AP) -- The FBI is trying to determine whether members of a radical Detroit-area Islamic group were homegrown jihadists or merely a "bunch of thugs with bluster," a congressman said Thursday. One thing is certain: They are not mainstream Muslims, the agency (FBI)* said.
*my clarification

Here's what Fox said....
DETROIT — A leader of a radical U.S. Sunni Islam group killed in a shootout with federal agents near Detroit repeatedly told followers that the government was the enemy and they must be willing to take on the FBI — even if it meant death, authorities said.

"You cannot have a nonviolent revolution," Luqman Ameen Abdullah said, according to a 2008 conversation secretly recorded by a confidential FBI source.
The AP report, reports what has happened and has supplied statements made by various parties involved in and around the incident. What Fox have made of that may include the substantive similarities but has emphasized the possibilities of jihadists, added stories of their own (which if they had these why did they bother using AP) such as allegations of beating kids with sticks, and then failed to include.....
Rep. Peter Hoekstra of Michigan, the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, said he talked to FBI Director Robert Mueller and was told the agency was trying to determine if the men were a "bunch of thugs with bluster" or possible homegrown jihadists.
One thing is certain: They are not mainstream Muslims, the agency (FBI) said.
Malik23 wrote:Just look at the way this story ends. Forget for a moment the outrageous fact that our FBI feels it must reassure anti-discrimination groups before it makes an arrest (since when does our FBI report to advocacy groups?). But the AP feels it's important enough to inform us that this shootout isn't anti-Muslim.
The Fox story ends this way, the AP story did not. The comment on anti muslim is actually that of a congressman
Malik23 wrote:They are acutely aware of how this looks, and are taking pains to sway public opinion about it even as they report it. But that AP disclaimer probably isn't enough for the other news sources.


What AP disclaimer Malik????????? Show me!
finn wrote:You've made veiled and sarcastic remarks about AP and despite several times asking for you to clarify, you've not done so. I have no axe to grind here, if AP are playing sides well OK; I am saying I don't know but am not prepared to dismiss a news agency which should be in the business of supplying raw un-spun news without some evidence that they are not independent.

Is this what you are saying Malik/Ki or not and if you are what is the basis of the accusation?
I mean really! Read these two pieces and tell me where are the additional "Fox facts" come from and where AP factual transcripts from named sources have disappeared to. Which parts of the AP report above are spun Malik?

You are quite right Malik, this is a story you can only get from Fox!
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Post by Cail »

Finn, you're making the assumption that Fox is fabricating things. I say your bias is speaking for you. There's nothing any more inflammatory in the Fox story than there is directly off the AP wire.

Sorry man, but your jaundice is coloring your view. If there was something damning about Fox's coverage of this, I'd be right there with you (I've been on record for years disliking Fox), but it ain't there in this case.
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Post by Zarathustra »

finn wrote:Am I missing something here because this looks like a gross distortion Malik!

The story is not an AP story it is a Fox News story. AP are given an acknowledgement for contributions to the story, by Fox News on the Fox news site. AP have the story and Fox have used this as the basis for their piece, this is not a reproduction of the story this is the Fox spin on the story.

Dodging the question by switching threads will not do Malik. You've made veiled and sarcastic remarks about AP and despite several times asking for you to clarify, you've not done so. I have no axe to grind here, if AP are playing sides well OK; I am saying I don't know but am not prepared to dismiss a news agency which should be in the business of supplying raw un-spun news without some evidence that they are not independent.

Is this what you are saying Malik/Ki or not and if you are what is the basis of the accusation?
When I linked to this story this morning, it did indeed have "Associated Press" at the top, before the story began. I have no idea why that was changed.

As for veiled and sarcastic points about the AP, I really have no idea what you're talking about. My point wasn't veiled or sarcastic. I plainly, explicitly stated in that thread that when AP reporters supply data to statisticians (including which sets of temperature data to analyze, and which year to start the analysis), and then interpret the statisticians' analysis themselves--rather than *report* the interpretation of actual scientists--they are putting their own spin on a story. The only sarcasm I expressed was my shock that you thought their attempt at doing science was without spin.

I am not dodging a question simply because I start a new thread that has absolutely nothing to do with that question. That's a bit paranoid of you to make such an accusation of me. This thread is not about the AP. I intended to put more stories here that are exclusively on Fox, such as the couple that was kidnapped by pirates, but I haven't had time to see if that story was still only being reported by Fox.
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Post by Plissken »

For the record, I got the AP version from NPR this morning. Now, did FOX cover the 160,000 folks who protested in favor of gay rights in DC a week or so ago? 'Cause, you know, they seem to like protests of any size, right down to a couple of hundred. Their producers like to get the folks to yell louder and stuff.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Plissken wrote:For the record, I got the AP version from NPR this morning.
I specifically checked NPR this morning, just for you, and didn't see it anywhere. Maybe I missed it. [Edit: just checked again, didn't see it anywhere on the main page, went looking in the "U.S." section, couldn't find it there, either.]
Now, did FOX cover the 160,000 folks who protested in favor of gay rights in DC a week or so ago? 'Cause, you know, they seem to like protests of any size, right down to a couple of hundred. Their producers like to get the folks to yell louder and stuff.
Why would you ask that question? You're not getting your news from Jon Stewart, are you? :)

Yes, they covered it.

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Post by Avatar »

Saw this today on my usual online news source, credited to the AP. And no, it didn't differ substantively from any other version. As for the differences between the Fox version...looks like nothing more than changing the order around. Maybe to give a spin to it, maybe just to cater to the reader/viewer. No real differences though.

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Post by finn »

Cail wrote:Finn, you're making the assumption that Fox is fabricating things. I say your bias is speaking for you. There's nothing any more inflammatory in the Fox story than there is directly off the AP wire.

Sorry man, but your jaundice is coloring your view. If there was something damning about Fox's coverage of this, I'd be right there with you (I've been on record for years disliking Fox), but it ain't there in this case.
Firstly Cail I am not making an assumption abouit Fox fabricating things, I am asking where the things not reported by AP came from. I am also asking why AP is getting heat from the family Malik... a question that I have repeatedly emphasised is an information request.
Here's what AP said.....
Quote:
DETROIT (AP) -- The FBI is trying to determine whether members of a radical Detroit-area Islamic group were homegrown jihadists or merely a "bunch of thugs with bluster," a congressman said Thursday. One thing is certain: They are not mainstream Muslims, the agency (FBI)* said.

*my clarification

Here's what Fox said....
Quote:
DETROIT — A leader of a radical U.S. Sunni Islam group killed in a shootout with federal agents near Detroit repeatedly told followers that the government was the enemy and they must be willing to take on the FBI — even if it meant death, authorities said.

"You cannot have a nonviolent revolution," Luqman Ameen Abdullah said, according to a 2008 conversation secretly recorded by a confidential FBI source.
Do you really think that the opening of each story presents a similar slant on the same story? AP quotes a congressman who is unsure of the status of some pretty disturbed people, Fox launches a terrorist action on home soil.

That's jaundiced????
Malik wrote:As for veiled and sarcastic points about the AP, I really have no idea what you're talking about.
because it isn't a story produced by Fox, but rather the "objective" AP
But the AP feels it's important enough to inform us that this shootout isn't anti-Muslim. They are acutely aware of how this looks, and are taking pains to sway public opinion about it even as they report it. But that AP disclaimer probably isn't enough for the other news sources.
statisticians? hired by the AP? well, sign me up. now this is what i needed to be convinced
I think the point is that a purported news organization is generally thought to report news, not make it. These are statisticians whom the AP hired to conduct "research" and to come up with a conclusion about global warming (even though they weren't given the context of what the numbers actually represented). The AP wasn't reporting a scientific finding by scientists--they were trying to do science themselves, and thus become an active participant in the debate, even though they're not qualified.

In addition, the methodology and evidence wasn't included in the AP story. The idea that they're not publishing spin, when they supplied the data to the statisticians--including the choice of which year to start calculating the trend--is ludicrous. This is the very definition of spin, when the reporters themselves decide which scientific data is signficant enough to study. Good grief, this isn't that hard to spot. When reporters start making decisions on which data set should be analyzed, and then draw a conclusion based on their own previously made decision, and you still think that this doesn't represent spin, there is a serious breakdown in your critical thinking when applied to this story and source. They aren't reporting opinions of scientists who took measurements and decided to analyze those measurments. They are reporting their own conclusions about data which they hand-picked themselves. All the statisticians did was provide mathematical analysis. Then the AP themselves decided how to interpret that analysis.

When we can no longer spot a news agency trying to do science, and still think they aren't spinning a story, we're in serious trouble when it comes to identifying what is real news. This is shocking, really. The same people who advocate action against Fox (because of an ideological disagreement) can't spot BLATANT spin because of an ideological agreement.
As for veiled and sarcastic points about the AP, I really have no idea what you're talking about. My point wasn't veiled or sarcastic. I plainly, explicitly stated in that thread that when AP reporters supply data to statisticians (including which sets of temperature data to analyze, and which year to start the analysis), and then interpret the statisticians' analysis themselves--rather than *report* the interpretation of actual scientists--they are putting their own spin on a story. The only sarcasm I expressed was my shock that you thought their attempt at doing science was without spin.
AP were not doing that Malik, any more than they were elaborating on the story above. Your analysis of the statistician story was seriously flawed, and you've repeated those incorrect assertions. Look, I have no particular love of AP all I want to know is why they are being denigrated, certainly the reasons you've given post date the distrust inherent in the quotes above. Are you saying they have a left wing slant? Hey i'd be prepared to believe you, at least till I'd checked it myself. However so far I've found nothing that supports a bias.
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Post by Zarathustra »

[Post moved to new thread.]
Last edited by Zarathustra on Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Zarathustra »

finn wrote:
Malik wrote:As for veiled and sarcastic points about the AP, I really have no idea what you're talking about.
because it isn't a story produced by Fox, but rather the "objective" AP
Well, scare quotes can imply sarcasm, or they can imply incredulity. I prefer the latter interpretation, but I can see how you interpretted it as the former. I literally don't believe the AP is objective. At least not all the time. I'm not being sarcastic when I say this. Nor am I veiling my incredulity.

I stand by the next quote, in as much as it applies to the original AP story. I'm confused now what was in the Fox AP story, and the original. But Av says it's about the same, so I don't feel any pressing urge to check just to satisfy you.

The next quote was from my wife. Take it up with her.

The bit about a "purported" news organization is a tongue-in-cheek reference to the recent round of debates about Obama deciding what is and what is not a real news organization. People have been tossing around "NPR" and other news sources as genuinely objective, and I have challenged that idea in several forums. It's not aimed at the AP specifically, but this issue in general. However, I still do think the specific AP story which started all this wasn't objective.
Finn wrote:Your analysis of the statistician story was seriously flawed, and you've repeated those incorrect assertions.
If the statisticians didn't know what the numbers represented, but merely crunched the numbers and handed that purely numerical result back to the AP, and then AP decided to interpret those numbers to mean that global warming is real, then the AP is making a scientific conclusion, rather than reporting a conclusion of a scientist.
Finn wrote:Look, I have no particular love of AP all I want to know is why they are being denigrated, certainly the reasons you've given post date the distrust inherent in the quotes above. Are you saying they have a left wing slant? Hey i'd be prepared to believe you, at least till I'd checked it myself. However so far I've found nothing that supports a bias.
As I explained above, my responses have been part of the overall debate on "real" news and news with a perspective. I have found it instructive in this debate to point out spin in news sources that are customarily thought of as "objective" and "real." I have nothing against the AP and don't suspect some pervasive liberal bias. However, the clear spin in the global warming story presented a timely example to use my instructive technique described above. My best example of this was my analysis of the NPR ACORN story in the Glenn Beck thread. The more people get used to questioning every news source, the more they realize the partisan motivation that goes into singling out one particular source.
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Post by finn »

That's cool Malik, now I know what you are saying about AP and I have no grounds to disagree! I actually do get what you are saying about the credibility of the various sources of news which of course all here in our wisdom try to balance into an estimation of what is really going on! I think there is a range of hues from tints to outright block colour in what we read, see and hear. Some is frankly so twisted as to not resemble the truth other stuff just has a bit of gilding on a lily or a rose tint in the glass. That's what's presented, but then we add our own preferences and if your view is yellow and the news is blue it will inevitably come out looking a bit green!

As for the differences in the story, despite what Av might have seen I saw a very different slant on events with one being a story about some nuts who may have been connected to or interested in the terrorism phenomenon as part of their sickness, the other was that they were terrorist lurking amongst us and spiced with liberal amounts of gratuity and sensationalism. I'm sure given the above paragraph and your post that the truth of the difference lies in between..... but that does still represent a difference.
Malik wrote:I don't feel any pressing urge to check just to satisfy you
I'm appalled :biggrin: Fortunately, I did cut and paste a bit from the start of each just on the off chance............................................. suprised you didn't notice it!

Hang on a minute..... Zarathustra??? WTF as in Thus Spake?

Malik you do know that one of the interpretations of this name is someone who longs for/desires camels :P
"Winston, if you were my husband I'd give you poison" ................ "Madam, if you were my wife I would drink it!"

"Terrorism is war by the poor, and war is terrorism by the rich"

"A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well."

"The opposite of pro-life isn't pro-death. Y'know?"

"What if the Hokey Cokey really is what its all about?"
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Immanentizing The Eschaton
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Post by Avatar »

Sorry man, it's way too late. You're Malik...it's not gonna be possible to call you anything else. Is it because of what I suspect it is? :lol:

--A

[Edit: Hmmm...I wonder where my copy of Thus Spake... is?]
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Post by Cagliostro »

CRAP! It's happening already!
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Life is a waste of time
Time is a waste of life
So get wasted all of the time
And you'll have the time of your life
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Post by Avatar »

Told ya so. :D (And there's still one you've missed. :D )

--A
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