Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:57 am**

I have a very tough personal problem that I'm not sure I'm competent to solve right now. I emailed a professor about it, telling him this:

The general form of virtue, for Kant, is self-command, both as an affirmative commitment to our capacity to set ends and as a negative constraint on empirical inclination. (Right?) Now I try to be a self-commanding individual, and therefore act against my desires when I think these are morally compromised. Moreover, I don't take, "I want to do it," where my want is a passive impulse, as much of a reason for me to do anything, ever. —So, I'm in love with someone who (evidently) doesn't feel the same way about me. This is hard to deal with, especially because this person wants me to be a part of his life for an indefinite number of years into the future, whereas I think the easiest and at any rate common-sense approach to unrequited affection is putting distance between yourself and who you have this asymmetrical passion for. This guy seems like he doesn't want to admit the character of my feelings for him because he doesn't know how to reconcile wanting me to be a part of his life with not wanting to hurt me. His self-deception I can confidently object to, but is it reason enough to go ahead and give up on friendship with him? You see, I think we could be friends and I think that would have ethical value, and I'm worried that if I act on my sadness about being in love with this person as my motive for separating my life from his, I'd be violating my commitment to self-command. I'm considering whether the following maxim, I suppose you could say, is right: "For this guy's sake, I should put up with my sadness, because I would thereby be expressing self-command over my emotions." Something along those lines.

Admittedly, most of what I lack in terms of reciprocal affection on his part is in terms of physical intimacy. In a platonic sense, our interaction is very deep, he trusts me (or professes to) more than anyone else, looks up to me, etc. But physical intimacy, despite my lack of experience with it, I hold more or less sacred (I place extreme value on my personal space, including an intent to wait until I'm in a deep relationship with someone before I have sex). So... I suppose you can understand how intense my frustration in this case is. Though I think it'd probably be really intense for almost anyone in my shoes.

But taking that frustration, along with the assorted principles that stand behind it, as justification for breaking contact with this guy: would that be right? I don't think intentionally causing someone emotional pain is usually justified, so theoretically, if I look at it from a more impersonal or impartial point of view, I have to think: would it be right for him to expect my friendship if he knew that it would involve so much agony for me? Are any of the perspectives I'm reflecting on this issue from sufficient to correctly resolve it? I don't know. I don't know what angles my own moral weakness might hit me from during my reflections, either. Which arguments are rationalizations, if any—that it to say, am I rationalizing a self-degrading acceptance of pointless suffering for myself, or am I rationalizing destroying an ethically valid friendship? Or something else or nothing in any event (perhaps I'm simply confused)?

I could just assume that I ought to be able to recognize the right answers to these questions on my own, inasmuch as my duty has to be constantly and entirely present to me or it would place demands on me of which I was unaware and therefore unable to willfully satisfy—in which case I could argue that I don't need outside assistance on coming up with those right answers, either. But on the off chance that I'm not internally resourceful enough—if only because I've blinded myself to the truth—I don't think looking for external help is wrong. And if you can provide that help, then I have to thank you for it. This problem has been one of the most enduring in my life, taking up about 2 years by now, and I've done I don't know how much damage to myself stumbling around in the darkness of its moral shadow.

The first half of my reply to his first (sort of dismissive) reply was this:

If I could afford counseling or had a psychiatrist (or a professor, for that matter) for a friend who I could go over this with, I would. I don't expect you to help me, but I don't know who to talk to. And it's frustrating to think that I could be deluding myself in some way and yet have only my own judgment to guide me, here.

If anyone here feels up to rendering me some aid (if you think that would even be appropriate), thanks.

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:22 am**

As far as solutions are concerned, I'm not sure I could help at the moment, but I could offer my understanding in that I'm going through something similar. I could also offer up some questions to help you think about it

First, what is the origins of your love? Is it because of the deep trust you hold for each other that you have these feelings? Are there any others in your life with whom you share such a deep relationship? It could be that your love for your friend is a result of the deep friendship you have with this guy that you do not share with anyone else.

Second, does he know about it? I ask because if he did, his response to it could help further understand or reconcile your friendship. If he doesn't 'know' (i.e. you haven't directly told him)... can't say if you should or shouldn't...that would be a topic for later discussion (my favorite phrase, apprently

).

I find that understanding the issue helps a little bit, and I hope these questions will help you out.

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:37 am**

Oh my. First of all, let me make sure that I understand this.

You love him, but he does not love you -- at least in the way you love him.

The two of you are not in a deep (or committed) relationship, but he want you to be part of his life for a timeframe measured in future years.

The relationship that currently exists is only platonic. Although you feel a deeper bond, the two of you have not been physically intimate. We'll give him the benefit of the doubt and stipulate that this is not the stumbling block in his not feeling for you as you do for him.

You've gone to a professor for advice, or at least catharsis, and the response there has been somewhat dismissive.

Hopefully, I've not misread the situation too much.

So...my advice (for whatever it is worth) is that you should only remain friends with him to the extent that it does not cause you agony. There is no nobility in that sort of sacrifice. While "if it feels good, do it" is so forty years ago, "if it hurts, don't" is just common sense.

Should you find it in yourself to be capable of this friendship without pain, wonderful. If you cannot deal with being friends now, tell him so and agree to leave each other alone for some reasonable period of time. Maybe his depth of feeling will grow; maybe yours will lessen -- maybe neither. Give time a chance. At some point you will both know whether this really is a long-term friendship, something more, or something less.

In any case, do not settle for anything less than someone who feels as much for you as you do for that person. Even then, take time to really know each other before delving deeper. Passion is intense and wonderful, but love (distinct from romance) has its own quality as well.

Finally, do not judge the professor too harshly for not wanting to be a source of personal advice. That isn't really a professor's role; he probably considers that there may be a distinct potential for a downside if he gets involved. On the other hand, we (your fellow Watchers) are more than happy to put our

in.

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:26 am**

I think that, on the whole, I agree with Savor Dam above. (I also think you read too much Kant, but we'll leave that for a different discussion.

)

While I am all in favour of self-command, I do not think that there is any need to excercise it for it's own sake. Nor should you necessarily be so quick to dismiss "I want" as an invalid impulse, passive or otherwise.

Now, I read your post as implying that this person does know the extent of your feelings.

If my impression is correct, then my question is "Why does he want you in his life for such a hypothetical period as years?" Friendship?

You must ask yourself whether his impulse is an ethically valid one. What motivations underly his desire to keep you in his life? I can certainly think of several possibilities which are not strictly ethical. And certainly not altruistic.

Next, ask yourself whether friendship, an inherently emotional concept, can arise (or be "real") on the basis of an ethical decision. I'm not sure how clear my meaning is there...essentially, I'm asking whether we are, or should be friends with somebody because it's the "right" thing to do.

I submit that we neither do, nor should do, that. Friendship is a connection between people that does not require or rely on some nebulous, subjective philosophical definition of what is ethical.

Now, if my impression is wrong, and this person does not know how you feel, then the issue is completely different. Then, the question becomes whether or not it is worth putting in the effort in the hope that, as time passes, the person discovers similar feelings within themselves, at the risk that they never do.

In the final estimation, I think this sums up my opinion:

This above all: to thine own self be true...

The real issue is whether you're willing or able to suffer the pain and remain happy (enough), (and without eventually poisoning that friendship). In the end, it's your life and your happiness that should be the determining factor. Not whether it is "ethical" to end the relationship.

--A

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:15 am**

If you're younger than 27 then don't fret - this too will pass. Make any deciision you want - it won't matter in the long run

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:14 pm**

Vain wrote:If you're younger than 27 then don't fret - this too will pass. Make any deciision you want - it won't matter in the long run

30 though

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:05 pm**

You don't talk to him like you did in your post do you?
I got bored half way through.
Now you could call me an a$$hole for saying that, fine.
But it's possible that's why he doesn't want anything more from you.
Needy friends like your post sounds to me can be tolerated and you can be enjoyed to a degree because you are just friends.

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:15 pm**

High Lord Tolkien wrote:You don't talk to him like you did in your post do you?
I got bored half way through.
Now you could call me an a$$hole for saying that, fine.
But it's possible that's why he doesn't want anything more from you.
Needy friends like your post sounds to me can be tolerated and you can be enjoyed to a degree because you are just friends.

A good thing to consider. Some people can be overwhelmed with the rhetoric you just posted, so if you haven't talked with him about this and you decide to, you ought to use a form such as "I don't know if it's right to remain friends when I like you." Short, and gets at least the general point across.

Avatar wrote:(I also think you read too much Kant, but we'll leave that for a different discussion. )

At the risk of hijacking this thread and seemingly contradicting my self, I have this to say: Blasphemy!

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:18 pm**

Stay. The sadness comes from being near this person but yielding to the temptation of continuing to think of him as a romantic partner. A self-commanding person can help herself to stop thinking of him in that way. Once you do, in a short time you'll be beyond the whole thing.

(I've always felt that love is given, and withdrawn, by will. Sometimes the will lacks. Other times, we give in too easily. In both directions.)

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:46 pm**

Vain wrote:If you're younger than 27 then don't fret - this too will pass. Make any deciision you want - it won't matter in the long run

Hm...why exactly 27?

Oh well. That leaves me 3 years. And yeah, I'm sorry, I just couldn't get into reading that first post either.

Can someone give me a book-a-minute summary?

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:50 pm**

um....why are you trying to rationalize something that is not ever, by any stretch of the imagination, rational?

love is not rational nor can you make is so by writing of it or talking about it in rational terms as you did above. (that's merely and intellectual attempt to control your feelings) and, contrary to wayfriend's post, we do not choose who we love. love simply happens.

the "right" thing to do is take care of yourself.

as warren zevon so wisely put it, you can't start it like a car, you can't stop it with a gun.

you don't have to stop loving someone (nor do i believe you can) and you don't have to stop being their friend.
what you do have to do is decide whether or not it's worth the sadness it causes you to engage with this person on a regular basis.

sometimes loving someone can be hazardous to your emotional health.
in those situations i've always found that separation from that person
leads to the healing of wounded or confusing emotions.

and if your friend is, in fact, your friend and cares for you, you ought to be able to explain your feelings to him and take a bit of a break from regular contact with him. if he cares for you, he will understand.

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:57 pm**

Wayfriend, you are scaring me with your avatar.

Now I don't mean to make fun of you or be a jerk like HLT

, but I can definitely tell you are in college. College really locks you in your head, and while it is a fun place to explore, you have to get out of it now and again. That's why drinking alcohol and enjoying other elicit substances are so popular in college. But hell, just get out of your head a little and go bowling or something. I studied liberal arts as well, and I know I wrote/talked like this by the end of it.

It did take me 4 times to read through this and get a sense of what you were talking to your prof about. And maybe that is why he/she came off as dismissive - maybe the prof had trouble as well. It really is pretty dense (by which I don't mean stupid - I mean it's like reading through Donaldson sometimes). And as Savor Dam said, it isn't really the prof's role, and there are other professional elements that might come into play with them becoming involved as well.

So if I'm reading this correctly, he just wants to remain friends and you want something more. It sounds like you might have talked with him about this, but if you haven't, do so. It sucks to admit something only to confirm that the other person isn't all that into you, but one of my biggest regrets in life is not telling someone my feelings.

If you have discussed it all and you know these are his feelings, then do you have an open, honest relationship? If so, just try to back off from him a bit, and if he asks, let him know you are having trouble just being friends, and you need a little space for a bit to get your emotions under control. I'd suggest about a month apart, within reason (obviously don't skip classes if you share classes or whatnot). It'll do you good.
If you don't have a very open relationship, then just back off, and if he asks about it, make some lame excuse and get together in small doses for about a month, doing stuff like going to the movies where you don't have to talk.
During this month, do other things to try not to think about him. The best thing you can do is get out of your head for a while, and get him out as well. Try to meet other people. Try doing at least one thing each week that scares you during this time. And if you are having troubles forgetting about him, try something that smokers sometimes do, which is wear a rubber band around your wrist, and when you think of him and don't want to, snap the rubber band. It takes time to get over these feelings, and it sucks to have to give up what you've spent so much time and energy invested in, but it is better than continually banging your heart against somebody's chest that won't accept it.
And as for sex, well, my best advice is to make sure you are ready for it before engaging in it. You still won't be ready, but at least make sure it is your decision and not someone pressuring you. Or you can do as some of my friends had done, and just get it the hell over with. Sex is a funny thing. It really isn't as big a deal as we tend to make it. But it can really bring you much closer to someone, and it can also mentally screw you up for years. This is a dumb analogy, but it's kinda like a loaded gun - things that go wrong can go REALLY wrong, but people fire guns all the time with no problems. It really depends on the intent behind it (and the size of the caliber

).

I hope that helped even a little bit. If not, hopefully you got a laugh out of my stupidity.

EDIT: looks like lucimay got there before me on the advice front, and much more succinctly. Damn the lost post that I had to recreate and stupid work calls.

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:11 pm**

This guy is *aware* of my feelings but doesn't acknowledge this awareness. And I can understand it: he's lost lots of people he cares about for various reasons, to lose me because of something he doesn't know how to fix (if that's the right word) would be terrible for him, especially considering the extreme value he places on my company, so it's easier for him to assume that my emotional problems have a different source than this. But he's being self-deceptive just the same.

My reasons for liking him so much range from crude/shallow to emotionally deep. On the deeper end, it's because he was the first guy I met to read the Covenant novels at my encouraging (this means the world to me, given how much I refer to the moral psychology these books infused my upbringing with in describing my intentions in life). And he got into philosophy because of me, too. Like, most of the classes he's taking in college involve reading philosophy texts, so he naturally comes to me for help on his assignments. This gives me a chance to shine, shine for him moreover. Stuff like this. And part of it is circular: because he wants me to be a part of his life for... Well, one time, he said "for eternity," although I've had people promise me eternal friendship before, to no avail... Anyway, the intensity of his desire for my company amplifies what I already feel.

... I'm not too worried about whether the professor replies more informatively. I don't know him too well, just based on prior discussions with him (online) and reading his work I figured he'd be good at helping me unmask any lies I might be telling myself. Or he could tell me what he thinks Kant would say about my problem, which since Kantian ethics is another angle I regularly tend to look at my moral situation from I think would be helpful in sorting things out for me.

... I guess it would be worthwhile to explain my sense of friendship, too. I've always taken friendship to be a matter of ethics. Not so much starting one, but at any rate maintaining those we have, inasmuch as giving up on one for no good reason would be a form of betrayal (and therefore wrong). Now my technical definition invokes the entire metaethics, etc. I accept and is next to useless for this discussion right now, so I don't want to worry about it (yet). It's enough that for me, it really is a normative question that I'm asking in this case.

...so if you haven't talked with him about this and you decide to, you ought to use a form such as "I don't know if it's right to remain friends when I like you."

LOL, the first thing I tried. He just gave me this hurt look and stammered something about how relationships are always temporary but "we could be friends our entire lives, dude." And then I made my fateful decision to try to suffer for friendship's sake, which suffering I think was rendered almost totally meaningless down the road of the nearly two years since then, though.

—Maybe I should be more specific about the choice I'm presently faced with. This guy asked me to come live with him in his town, and now he's trying to go off to the city where he's going to school and wants me to go with him there, too. I guess it would be easier to tolerate if I *weren't* his roommate, maybe I could adjust my feelings without his constant presence. But MY constant availability is what he's asking for, in part because of my education and therefore my ability to help him with school.

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:41 pm**

It sounds as if he isn't being considerate about your feelings. To know they're there and not acknowledge them at all? What kind of a friend is that? There are some people (not necessarily him, but...they exist) who keep others around as groupies and fans (and, from what it sounds like, personal tutors): people who love/lust after them and give them the attention they want without asking for anything or expecting reciprocation.

Even if that isn't the case, I think it's inconsiderate of him to not have a real and serious conversation with you about the way you feel (and have felt for a while) and the struggle you're having with it. If you took your love for him out of the equation, is the friendship you're left with something you're willing to endure that much agony and suffering for?

All this said, I don't want to come off as negative and whatnot towards him. It's truly a terrible situation to be in and I don't envy your decision. Don't stay inside of your head for too long. There's a philosophical and pragmatic way of looking at these things. Bottom line: make sure you're doing what's Right and Healthy for You.

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:44 pm**

He wants you to uproot your life for him? At the level of involvement the two of you are at now?

No.

(See, I can be brief!)

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:01 pm**

If you had loved and lost I would feel more empathy for this situation.

What's the name of that show... oh yeah, He's Just Not That Into You.

And he's a selfish prick for keeping you on a string if he knows you feel this way about him. Be honest with yourself and realize that for whatever reason the physical attraction is not there and that you need to move on if you cannot accept that and value him purely for friendship only.

That really is the best thing for you btw. Just cut him off and you actually might get what you want. It takes a lot of strength to do it though. And you cannot falter. You can't take the first call. Maybe not even the third or tenth- depends on the person and the situation. You gotta play the waiting game knowing that you might lose him forever. But that is not necessarily a bad thing.

Rent the movie "Just Friends" in the meantime. Hit the gym, go out with the girls whatever. Enjoy your life. It sounds as if this friendship is bringing you more heartache than happiness.

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:16 pm**

It sounds like you still want to be friends, and that can work, but it is pretty much all on you. And if you can't get over him, by all means, don't move in with him. Tell him maybe next year, but right now you need to work on you.

And I mean this very seriously, you need a vacation from your head. Watch a stupid comedy that requires no thinking that you can just shut down for a bit. Put Kant aside for a while and take a walk and enjoy nature. Abuse your mind by turning it into a swimming pool with alcohol. Just shut it off for a few hours. Thinking is good, but can be just as detrimental analyzing everything than if you switch it off completely.

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:40 pm**

Quote:
...so if you haven't talked with him about this and you decide to, you ought to use a form such as "I don't know if it's right to remain friends when I like you."

LOL, the first thing I tried. He just gave me this hurt look and stammered something about how relationships are always temporary but "we could be friends our entire lives, dude." And then I made my fateful decision to try to suffer for friendship's sake, which suffering I think was rendered almost totally meaningless down the road of the nearly two years since then, though.

But...aren't friendships a type of relationship?

In my frank opinion, the guy's attitude towards you is a little messed up. He's acting towards and wants you to assume the role of one of the most important people in his life... without letting you become that person. He wants all the good things a relationship can offer, but not risk any of the pain that inevitably comes of it. This, in my opinion, is cowardly. Much of the advice given here sounds pretty sound, as well. Do not commit yourself to him, take as much a break from him as is possible. Cag's advice is also excellent. Sometimes, we just need to step back and leave a problem alone for while. Afterwards, sometimes the solution is easier to find since we're looking at it with a fresh perspective.

Also, I agree with Wayfriend, with one specification: We are able to love whomever we want to varying degrees, however attraction is what may happen to us without our consent or power. But this is of no matter, I can be attracted to someone (this is just acknowledgement) but that doesn't mean I have to pine for them, that is my choice. So, take some of the excellent advice offered here, and accept that, at least in the immediate present, a meaningful, romantic relationship with this guy will not happen. That's not to say it may not happen, but that's in the uncertain future, live with reality as it is now, and things will tend to work out.

Posted: **Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:51 pm**

Wait, let me see if I have this straight. You're *already* roommates? You've moved with this guy once already, and now he wants you to move with him again? And yet he's not willing to give you anything but a platonic/non-romantic relationship? Basically he wants you around to help him with his homework? Honey, that's not friendship -- that's servitude.

While you are struggling with your moral dilemma about whether it's ethical to end this friendship and agonizing over to whom it would be fairest to cause pain, this guy could care less about all that. He apparently sees nothing wrong with you uprooting your life multiple times to follow him around the country and be his "friend". It's a great deal for him -- he gets in-home idolization and a private tutor, *and* he never has to find a new roommate! And you get...what, again, exactly?

I agree with what others have said. Your only ethical choice, in the face of his unethical behavior toward you, is to extract yourself from his life.

Posted: **Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:32 am**

omg mig, you're like...following this guy around while he's non-commital?

a) stop overthinking

and b) don't be following any guy around.

you're not taking care of you you're taking care of him so...

c) stop care-taking.

forgive my directness but i'm just trying to cut through the bs you've got going on in your head about this.

take
care
of
YOURSELF.

ps. friendship is the only relationship there actually is. anything else is an illusion. (i.e. your lover, mate, spouse should theoretically be your best friend)
it's obvious from your description of what he's said and how he's behaved he doesn't know this yet.

Kevin's Watch

A personal problem

A personal problem