Kevin's Watch

"Give."
The order seemed to be directed at Covenant personally. As if on command, his gaze dropped to the bowl again. But the demand, the effort of coercion, brought back his anger. 1 don't owe you anything, he snapped silently.
Before he could pull away, the old man spoke again.
"I have warned you."
Unexpectedly, the statement struck Covenant like an insight, an intuitive summary of all his experiences in the past year. Through his anger, his decision came immediately. With a twisted expression on his face, he fumbled for his wedding ring.
He had never before removed his white gold wedding band; despite his divorce, and Joan's unanswering silence, he had kept the ring on his finger. It was an icon of himself. It reminded him of where he had been and where he was-of promises made and broken, companionship lost, helplessness-and of his vestigial humanity. Now he tore it off his left hand and dropped it in the bowl. "That's worth more than a few coins," he said, and stamped away.
"Wait."
…The old man was tall with power.
…"Why not destroy yourself?"
…he said, "That's too easy."
…"Look, is there anything I can do for you? Food? A place to stay? You can have what I've got."
…"Take back the ring. Be true. You need not fail."


We learn later that the bum was actually the Creator of the earth & the arch of time. But why was Thomas Covenant chosen? I think one reason was that he wasn’t a super hero. He was a tough cookie but not a warrior. I think that in that way we are able to identify with him. Oh, we’d love to believe that we would act differently, that we would be more like he was in “The Power that Preserves” when he actually makes a decision to go after Foul. But I think that like Hile Troy, we would be dismayed, lost, and lacking. Could many actually stop themselves from raping Lena? If placed in Nazi Germany, given a high rank, high pay, and high power, who can really say what we would do? It is in my heart that we also would place the Jews in the showers of death’s rain at Auschwitz. So, understanding that I am capable of any wrong given the circumstances that best befit a thief, opportunity, I can identify with Thomas Covenant. We are alike in many ways. I don’t say that I would or wouldn’t rape Lena, but I also don’t presume to say I would be better because I simply don’t know and can never know because I’ll never be in that exact circumstance.

I believe that Thomas Covenant was chosen because he gave hugely when others did not care of the beggar in the street who was actually God Himself, the Creator. I also suspect that is why the ring was the symbol of the wild magic- because Covenant gave it, he put it in the bowl. Now here is the paradox; how could the people of the land have obscure myths of Berek returning or of wild magic & white gold if Thomas had not yet been chosen. I mean surely you don’t think that the bum was searching for someone with a white gold wedding ring do you? Do you?

The paradox is clear to me however because I understand a little bit about time in ways that others don’t. And because I find the subject so interesting & because I was so happy to find this place while I was rereading the Chronicles & because of the fine news that there will be a final series, I’m going to share it with you so that you can think about it.

The Creator is outside of the arch of time. It covers the land & prevents Lord Foul from escaping into the universe. Interestingly enough, the Creator can interact with Covenant on earth. Perhaps there are two archs of time, which would help to explain the difference in time’s flow between the land & the earth. The land’s present time flows away faster. At any rate, the Creator is outside of time. For him, all things transpire as if in the present. The future & the past are just as tangible as the present. Like memories of a long time ago & de-ja-vu of the present coming up to an already known future, God is beyond time & sees & feels all time, because time is a creation and he is outside of the laws of that creation. Therefore, when he comes through the arch of time covering the earth & spends “time” talking with Covenant, he already knows the future of the exchange between them before it happens. He has known it. He’s always known it. So whomever he had previously sent to the land, he told them of the wild magic that destroys peace, and the type of man who would come after him. He spoke of the while gold because eons later when the people of the land had returned from a 1,000 year banishment due to the ritual of desecration, he knew that he would be standing before Thomas Covenant & that Thomas would offer him food, offer him his home, offer him anything and everything he had, while others blindly walked past, uncaring, unmerciful. They would toss in a nickel or a dime, and here Thomas Covenant had given up the “icon of himself”, his very wedding ring.

I think that reality is very much like this as well. One day, maybe today, maybe some long ago yesterday or far away tomorrow, God becomes known to us. We either reject Him or we choose Him, but He already knows the outcome. And like the limitations of the arch of time, He can’t do anything about it. But He can send messengers to you, and beseech you in that way. When His white gold wielder comes to save you from despair, will you allow that? The ur-viles were quite content to serve Satansheart.

The obvious question that comes to mind then is ‘why would the Creator make our reality this way’. And there is an answer; but first I must ask a question. Which is preferable to you, the love of a pet or the love of your child? The answer then is that because God must maintain freewill so that we are not coerced to love Him. Therefore He cannot enter this world to make himself known, because to do so would be to desecrate faith. If God stood before you this very instant & you could feel all of the truth and power and majesty then you would have knowledge and you would still not believe and could never believe, because believing is from faith and not knowledge. You don’t believe the sky is blue, it is. You don’t believe you can touch the keyboard, you can, you do, you are. There is no faith in knowledge, no believe in fact. Truth is. You can say I believe in an ideal or a political viewpoint. But you can’t believe the sky is blue. It is blue. Your lack of belief cannot change your knowledge of a fact. And so there is a despiser and a Creator; there is lore, lorewardens, and Revelwoods. There are illearth stones, laws, and powers. There are limitations to what God & Satan can do. There are rules. There are answers. Time is a creation. I don’t know that. I believe it. If I knew it, then I would be bound to an older law which was broken two thousand years ago & would have less hope than the greater power of believing in what I can’t know.

all i can say is...WOW!

I've never understood why belief, rather than actual knowledge, was so important. If I have the story right, Satan was the greatest of God's creations. It wasn't a question of Satan believing that God existed, beause he saw God every day. But he still chose to not follow. If I was somehow convinced of the truth of what it seems most Christians believe, I still wouldn't like the way God does things, and would end up in Hell. Not out of defiance, just out of not liking how God operates. Not wanting to suffer eternal torture wouldn't make me feel a love that I don't feel. So it's not a matter of faith, it's a matter of me not agreeing with God on how to do things. Not sure it's even free will, since I cannot decide to change my mind, and like what I don't like. Not with food preferences, and not with matters of the running of existence.

(btw, I think this thread belongs in another forum.)

You are correct, Satan saw God, knew he existed. To me, the difference is that Satan and the angels were immortal & had 1 choice, while we are mortal and have freewill or infinite choices. For instance, you can decide to change your mind about God at any point in your life until you are dead. Also, I agree with you on eternal damnation being a poor qualifier for redemption. Believing in God because of that would be a lie to him. You would be escaping something, not embracing something. So I don’t actually believe that humanity will suffer eternally for their choice or lack of one. I believe that the Christians & the non-Christians are cleaned by fire, to be made perfect, somewhat like a giant’s Caamora. Depending on how sinful they were, or rather how much grime they had to remove. The difference is that without a savior, there is no giant’s power to protect the soul being cleaned, and that person is cleaned right out of existence. But with a savior that person is made perfect and desires no sin again. This is not to say that heaven will be boring, far from it. I imagine such things as traveling at the speed of thought itself. No need to fold space or break the light barrier, only to think my destination. Imagine viewing the pillars of creation up close. Oh there will be much to do!

As far as how God handles things, well that is a large debate. I’ve already alluded to the reasoning being freewill. If there is only goodness in the world then there is nothing else to choose.

And I think this thread belongs right here in this forum. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant are about a man sent by the Creator who saves a world from the despiser, Satansheart. I don’t think it gets any clearer that this is a work based on the greatest story ever told.

Which brings me to why I believe. Great stories are few and far in between. The story of the Bible, how a God becomes a man to die for his creation, is simply the most beautiful tale I’ve ever experienced. It has no equal.

Lord Luof wrote:To me, the difference is that Satan and the angels were immortal & had 1 choice, while we are mortal and have freewill or infinite choices. For instance, you can decide to change your mind about God at any point in your life until you are dead.

I'm not following you. In what way can we change our minds that Satan and the angels cannot? Do you mean that, since they actually lived with God, they had no choice but to believe? I'd say that's true, but still, I think the more important choice is whether or not to follow God once you believe or know that He exists, not whether or not to believe without fact.

And anyway, I don't think belief is a matter of choice. I can't even choose to change my mind about a relatively insignificant thing like preferring chocolate ice cream over strawberry. Deciding to believe that the God you believe in exists is not a possibility for me with the evidence I currently am aware of.

Lord Luof wrote:As far as how God handles things, well that is a large debate. I’ve already alluded to the reasoning being freewill. If there is only goodness in the world then there is nothing else to choose.

I agree. No point in free will if there's no options. In fact, no such thing as free will if there's no options.

Lord Luof wrote:And I think this thread belongs right here in this forum. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant are about a man sent by the Creator who saves a world from the despiser, Satansheart. I don’t think it gets any clearer that this is a work based on the greatest story ever told.

Yeah, I understand your point. I just figured you left TCTC pretty quickly, using it as a tangent. But it can certainly relate, probably in many ways, to what I took to be your main drive with the post.

Fist and Faith wrote:

Lord Luof wrote:To me, the difference is that Satan and the angels were immortal & had 1 choice, while we are mortal and have freewill or infinite choices. For instance, you can decide to change your mind about God at any point in your life until you are dead.

I'm not following you. In what way can we change our minds that Satan and the angels cannot? Do you mean that, since they actually lived with God, they had no choice but to believe? I'd say that's true, but still, I think the more important choice is whether or not to follow God once you believe or know that He exists, not whether or not to believe without fact.

And anyway, I don't think belief is a matter of choice. I can't even choose to change my mind about a relatively insignificant thing like preferring chocolate ice cream over strawberry. Deciding to believe that the God you believe in exists is not a possibility for me with the evidence I currently am aware of.

When Satan and the angels are outside of time, they have already chosen, are choosing, will choose. They have 1 choice. They are outside of time. In their immortality, knowing God and choosing another way is to utterly separate yourself from God. But on earth, within time, we are allowed infinite choices, freewill, the ability to choose from moment to moment. I’m its not making a lot of sense, read the bottom paragraph first.

At any rate, I'm not here to be a holy roller, to point at your life and accuse you. I make mistakes all the time. Its just that I have a different way of viewing things. I think that I'd like to share that from time to time. I thank you for your honesty & your discussing this with me. Tomorrow I will probably fall on my face for my sharing, but I'll ask all who read this not to name me the hypocrite. I'm just like you. I've merely made different choices... I make them all the time.

Fist and Faith wrote:Yeah, I understand your point. I just figured you left TCTC pretty quickly, using it as a tangent. But it can certainly relate, probably in many ways, to what I took to be your main drive with the post.

Well let’s get back to that. I think that the reason that the ring was chosen was because the Creator was seeking a possible savior & Thomas gave him, a beggar, his wedding ring. He knew that he was going to do it from the beginning (far before Covenant was even born), but that didn’t stop it from happening. The creator, living outside of time, is not bound by time in any way. To him Thomas Covenant is not yet born, a child, a man, in the land, dead. The choices are already known, nevertheless when interacting with him the Creator appears to make decisions, but he knew of them long before he appears to make them, yet the choices we would make are our own just as his are his own for very different reasons. Freewill is allowing us to make our own choices.

Lord Luof? Are you asking why white gold was "chosen" or why Thomas Covenant was chosen? Because they are two different things. At least they were in the beginning of all this.

Here is why white gold was chosen...

There is wild magic graven in every rock, contained for white gold to unleash or control
gold, rare metal, not born of the Land,
nor ruled, limited, subdued by the Law with which the Land was created (for the Land is beautiful, as if it were a strong soul's dream of peace and harmony, and Beauty is not possible without discipline and the Law which gave birth to Time is the Land's Creator's self-control)
but keystone rather, pivot, crux for the anarchy out of which Time was made,
and with Time Earth, and with Earth those who people it: wild magic restrained in every particle of life, and unleashed or controlled by gold (not born of the Land) because that power is the anchor of the arch of life that spans and masters Time:
and white -- white gold, not ebon, ichor, incarnadine, viridian because white is the hue of bone: structure of flesh, discipline of life.

This power is a paradox, because Power does not exist without Law, and wild magic has no Law;
and white gold is a paradox, because it speaks for the bone of life, but has no part of the Land.

And he who wields white wild magic gold is a paradox for he is everything and nothing, hero and fool, potent, helpless and with the one word of truth or treachery he will save or damn the Earth because he is mad and sane, cold and passionate, lost and found.

Wild magic, the keystone of the Arch of Time, contained in white gold to unleash or control. Foul was the one who was trying to bring the white gold to the Land, thru Drool. The Creator knew this. Foul didn't want Covenant, he didn't care who the wielder was, all he wanted was the white gold, in fact, he probably just sought some form of white gold and neither wielder or ring. Just white gold. The Creator couldn't let that happen so, taking a huge risk, he stepped in and chose Covenant. He tells Covenant why in The Power that Preserves, Leper's End.

"Then take peace in your other innocence," said a voice out of the darkness. "You did not choose this task. You did not undertake it of your own free will. It was thrust upon you. Blame belongs to the chooser, and this choice was made by one who elected you without your knowledge or consent."

Covenant did not need to ask who was speaking; he recognized the voice. It belonged to the old beggar who had confronted him before his first experience in the Land-the old man who had urged him to keep his wedding band, and had made him read a paper on the fundamental question of ethics.

Dimly, he replied, "You must have been sure of yourself."

"Sure? Ah, no. There was great hazard-risk for the world which I made-risk even for me. Had my enemy gained the white wild magic gold, he would have unloosed himself from the Earth-destroyed it so that he might hurl himself against me. No, Thomas Covenant. I risked my trust in you. My own hands were bound. I could not touch the Earth to defend it without thereby undoing what I meant to preserve. Only a free man could hope to stand against my enemy, hope to preserve the Earth."

Covenant heard sympathy, respect, even gratitude in the voice. But he was unconvinced. "I wasn't free. It wasn't my choice."

"Ah, but you were-free of my suasion, my power, my wish to make you my tool. Have I not said that the risk was great? Choiceless, you were given the power of choice. I elected you for the Land but did not compel you to serve my purpose in the Land. You were free to damn Land and Earth and Time and all, if you chose. Only through such a risk could I hope to preserve the rectitude of my creation."

In his darkness, Covenant shrugged. "I still wasn't free. That singer -who called me Berek. That revival. The kid who got herself snakebit. Maybe you left me free in the Land, but you didn't leave me alone in my own life."

"No," the voice responded softly. "I had no hand in those chances. Had I done anything at all to shape you, you would have been my tool-effectless. Without freedom, you could not have mastered my enemy-without independence-without the sovereignty of your own allegiance. No, I risked too much when I spoke to you once. I interfered in no other way."

Covenant did not like to think that he had been so completely free to ruin the Land. He had come so close! For a while, he mused numbly to himself, measuring the Creator's risk. Then he asked, "What made you think I wouldn't just collapse-wouldn't give up in despair?"

The voice replied promptly. "Despair is an emotion like any other. It is the habit of despair which damns, not the despair itself. You were a man already acquainted with habit and despair-with the Law which both saves and damns. Your knowledge of your illness made you wise."

Wise, Covenant murmured to himself. Wisdom. He could not understand why his witless heart went on beating.

"Further, you were in your own way a creator. You had already tasted the way in which a creator may be impotent to heal his creation. It is ofttimes this impotence which teaches a creation to despair."

"What about the creator? Why doesn't he despair?"

"Why should he despair? If he cannot bear the world he has made, he can make another. No, Thomas Covenant." The voice laughed softly, sadly. "Gods and creators are too powerful and powerless for despair."

Yes, Covenant said with his own sadness. But then he added almost out of habit, It's not that easy. He wanted the voice to go away, leave him alone with his oblivion. But though it was silent, he knew it had not left him. He drifted along beside it for a time, then gathered himself to ask, "What do you want?"

"Your knowledge of your illness made you wise." In that one statement we know why the Creator chose Covenant. He was a man "who knew the value of beauty." He was familiar with grief and despair. Yet, it was blind choice on the behalf of the Creator.

"Ah, but you were-free of my suasion, my power, my wish to make you my tool. Have I not said that the risk was great? Choiceless, you were given the power of choice. I elected you for the Land but did not compel you to serve my purpose in the Land. You were free to damn Land and Earth and Time and all, if you chose. Only through such a risk could I hope to preserve the rectitude of my creation."

We had a discussion in the Dissecting forum about the difference between Gods and Creators. I believe it was Fist that said the difference is that Gods require and seek worship, while Creators seek and require only to create and preserve that which they create. I do not believe that this Creator is all-knowing. He did not know what the outcome of his choice of Covenant would bring. It seems clear to me that he chose him unaware, and hoped his choice would not damn his creation. He said so himself...

Lord Luof wrote:When Satan and the angels are outside of time, they have already chosen, are choosing, will choose. They have 1 choice. They are outside of time. In their immortality, knowing God and choosing another way is to utterly separate yourself from God. But on earth, within time, we are allowed infinite choices, freewill, the ability to choose from moment to moment. I’m its not making a lot of sense, read the bottom paragraph first.

OK, I understand what you're saying now.

Lord Luof wrote:At any rate, I'm not here to be a holy roller, to point at your life and accuse you.

You haven't done anything remotely like that.

Lord Luof wrote:I make mistakes all the time.

I'll say!! Man, you're a mess!

Lord Luof wrote:Well let’s get back to that. I think that the reason that the ring was chosen was because the Creator was seeking a possible savior & Thomas gave him, a beggar, his wedding ring. He knew that he was going to do it from the beginning (far before Covenant was even born), but that didn’t stop it from happening. The creator, living outside of time, is not bound by time in any way. To him Thomas Covenant is not yet born, a child, a man, in the land, dead. The choices are already known, nevertheless when interacting with him the Creator appears to make decisions, but he knew of them long before he appears to make them, yet the choices we would make are our own just as his are his own for very different reasons. Freewill is allowing us to make our own choices.

I understand what you mean by "outside of time." But I'm not entirely comfortable with you allowing the Creator the same awareness in/of Covenant's reality as you are giving him in the Land's. If he did not create Covenant's reality, and it seems unlikely that he did, then he may be blinded to much of it, just as we are in our own and in Covenant's, having to learn things bit by bit. Maybe he sees bigger bits than we do, but I don't see that we should assume he is as intimate with a reality he did not create as one he did.

Furls Fire wrote:We had a discussion in the Dissecting forum about the difference between Gods and Creators. I believe it was Fist that said the difference is that Gods require and seek worship, while Creators seek and require only to create and preserve that which they create.

Actually, my thought is that a god gets worship, whether it wants it or not. It's the only thing I can think of that every god I know of from every religion/mythology has in common.

Furls Fire wrote:I do not believe that this Creator is all-knowing. He did not know what the outcome of his choice of Covenant would bring. It seems clear to me that he chose him unaware, and hoped his choice would not damn his creation. He said so himself...

I agree with you, but I understand Luof's position. At least I understand it as well as I can understand paradoxes like this. Here's a little bit of a conversation from the pilot to the original Kung Fu series:

Caine: "What happens in a man's life is already written. Man must move through life as his destiny wills."

An old man: "Yes, yet each man is free to live as he chooses. Though they seem opposite, both are true. [chuckles at his own lack of comprehension] I do not understand it."

Furls Fire wrote:I do not believe that this Creator is all-knowing. He did not know what the outcome of his choice of Covenant would bring. It seems clear to me that he chose him unaware, and hoped his choice would not damn his creation. He said so himself...

I agree with you, but I understand Luof's position. At least I understand it as well as I can understand paradoxes like this. Here's a little bit of a conversation from the pilot to the original Kung Fu series:

Caine: "What happens in a man's life is already written. Man must move through life as his destiny wills."

An old man: "Yes, yet each man is free to live as he chooses. Though they seem opposite, both are true. [chuckles at his own lack of comprehension] I do not understand it."

[/quote]

From Sarah Mclachlin’s new song:
How stupid could I be
A simpleton could see
That your no good for me
But you’re the only one I see.


I could be wrong. I could be wrong about everything. We’ve all made mistakes. We all make mistakes all the time. We all succumb to some kind of belief. We sell ourselves to this or that all the time. We accept the theory, THE THEORY!, of evolution. And I should ask, I must ask, is it better to believe that we were made from millions of spontaneously created protein molecules, a “goo” that somehow became one celled creatures, that somehow became fish, that somehow grew feet, that somehow grew from fish with feet to apes, to men? I wonder why… I wonder why this is more acceptable than to simply believe in a God. I wonder why we would accept that the moon is so perfectly the size of the sun from our earthly perspective that it exactly eclipses it. I wonder at the exact distance from the sun, so exact that the balance is utter perfection; the frozen ice of another few million miles farther versus the boiling heat of a few million miles closer. I wonder at the strangeness that allows such an animal as a pig to be so close in anatomical resemblance to the humans who rule the land. I wonder at the humans themselves, who lived even by evolution’s standards among animals which could easily rip them apart with barely a concern, the sabertooth, the mammoth, the many others. We’re told that humans were organized, but then we are told that they were not, that they were cavemen, hiding, unable to create cities in their primitive existence. There are so very many holes. And yet, people simply accept evolution, pure chance, as a gospel to their reality. Who are you? Are you simply a man or woman who came into existence by chance, from the goo of the oceans, to become a fish, to become an ape, to become a man? Why if we are evolved from apes are there still apes? What of the trees? If all this protein was simple chance then it would be far more similar. And if it isn’t so, then why is it so similar. Why are we closer to pigs in our anatomy than even apes? But it is true. Pigs most resemble our pathetic existence, our weakness, our organs are so much the same, our hairless skin, they are so close to us that we cut them up instead of apes in the classrooms of universities.

And why, why, why are we so arrogant as to expel any possibility of a God to exist? If this is reality and we care not for the Creator, then we are just like Thomas Covenant, unbelievers. If indeed the Creator lives & cannot breach his own “arch of time” or whatever it is that keeps him from appearing before each of us to explain everything as we would want it in our perfect selfishness, then how, how, are we different from Thomas Covenant? How are we better than that character which we hated? How is it that we live in a land which we call a dream, unwilling to accept that a Creator made this land? We deny ourselves power by our unbelief.

And I’m not talking about only those that disbelieve in God, even those that do don’t really believe. They think they do and perhaps that is enough. I’ve read that at the exact moment a person believes that time stops for that soul and that for the rest of that man or woman’s life, they are forgiven. If Jesus could die 2,000 years before for the present, why couldn’t his sacrifice also continue through that person’s small lifetime? Oh, I know not all the answers. I am an idiot, a child among huge knowing men who have failed and triumphed and no one seems to know the difference anymore. I would wish that I could show you the Creator, that I could say at this time & date he will make a sign in the sky for you. But there is no sign. There is nothing at all to say or show that would persuade you. Nothing at all. I could say, look here then and if something did actually happen, you could say, he read that on the internet. There would always be an excuse. But why is it? Why is that God DAMN! Is a curse and yet no other man or king or god has ever had his name so tainted by ill? Melekurian Abatha? That is kindness. But how is it that this name is hateful and hated and abused so?

Thomas Covenant did not believe in God. Perhaps he felt he could not. Would Morham? Did Morham? Didn’t Morham believe in the Creator? When few did, he accepted that truth to himself. And yet, when someone in this world believes they are mocked, called the fool, despised!

I don’t name you. You don’t know me. I also don’t extend my finger. I do not blame. I simply ask questions. I simply ask you if you do not believe, why. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is about the Bible. A savior comes to the land sent by the creator to destroy the despiser, called Satansfist by the Giants. It is plain that the Creator made the land, everyone accepts this. In the Bible, a book, like the 1st ward of Kevin, the scriptures are read & yet unknown. The people read & do not understand. There is something missing, just like there was something missing in the land with the Oath of Peace. That thing which was so powerful that people could make miracles beyond simple prayer (although that power is still available and still powerful) and they lost it back in the time of the early church. After a GOD! Came to live on the world of men as a man, a GOD!, we shortly forgot whatever it was that was learned. It is now lost. But still the people believe. Still people over the globe believe. You know of the Arab faiths, but did you know that ¼ of all the world believes in God? Look at the churches in your hometowns. They are every where. Are you better than they? This is not a pointed finger, this is rather a direct question. I ask it because history has recently made a new kind of reproach, and the people of faith are considered to be stupid, uneducated. Surely I am not uneducated. Surely Einstein was not uneducated, and he believed. Surely the great scientist Sir Isaac Newton was not uneducated & he believed! But so often I see educated people, taught in universities, taught the theory of evolution, disregard creation as a myth and as a child’s tale like Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny for lesser people of lower intelligences to follow as constant children through constant childlike lives.

Oh, I know the mistakes of those that would call themselves God’s children. I see the televangelists and the child-molesting priests. I hear of their mad tales & I despair just as you for their sicknesses. I abhor them as you do. I hate their sin & I am positive that God also hates that sin & would desire to strike them down with powerful thunder. I see the forest fires on television. I see the earthquakes & other disasters. But God, just like the Creator, cannot enter the world of men any longer. To do so would ruin his perfect plan of free choice. How could you choose wisely and freely if you saw God on Channel 13? How could you choose otherwise if you saw God destroying an army on satellite feed?

I ask you to wonder. I know that I ask much. You’ve been taught all of your lives that the theory of evolution is the truth. But I ask you to consider how perfect the world is, how exact everything is, how interesting that the moon exactly eclipses the sun, but that no other planet known in existence has such a phenomena. How exactly perfect the temperature of the world is and that the exact distance from an calm sun is so utterly perfect for life to exist & be. I ask you to wonder. I ask you to think of what Covenant dared not to think. He forgot the Creator even though he knew who it was speaking to him. He still waived his hand against him, waiving the idea out of existence. He even said he didn’t believe in him. But there he was, giving him a second chance, and showing him that Morham was not unmoved, Morham who also believed and cried.

All I can do is give these words. I am just a small little man. I have nothing to give. I am not asking for money. I know none of you. I simply say these things this one time, so that one or more of you might consider them. I will go now and diminish. I have said all that can be said by me. If I need to say it again, then I can point to here. I’ll go back to my life now where I make mistakes every single day just like you do. I’ll get mad at my loves and say all the wrong things and I won’t have anything better than you or more than you, except this one thing that if it is true, I’ll have a Creator’s forgiveness for living a lie & learning that I was mistaken. I’ll have that. I’ll be in heaven because I accepted his son’s sacrifice. I won’t be better than you even then. I’ll still be a small man, just a man, nothing more. But, but, if it is true, then I will have heaven. Isn’t that so powerful? To accept a gift from a God that became a man to save the world, the ones that would believe beyond other explanations? Isn’t that something to wonder at? Isn’t that something to become a lorewarden or unfettered for the EARTH and to be a power of good for the land of the earth where we really live where we really are and not just a story but a truth of life? Isn’t that something to be? Isn’t that something to live for instead of living because chance put us here for 70 years of non reason and nothingness? Isn’t it good or perhaps better to believe in an eternal judgment of right and wrong, but not by ourselves but rather by our acceptance of the alternative of a dead law and the belief of a God that became a man to hang our sins on his very death in this world!? It is so powerful a story, so beautiful a story, that I am unworthy to tell it rightly. I will say no more. I’ve said it all. I can always point here in the future. I’m just a man. I’m less than many of you. I just ask for your minds to be open to the impossibilities of other ideas of reality, just as ridiculous or beyond imagination, if it were possible in today’s small world of knowledge shared in every media, as evolution would be to an educated someone that had never heard of it. Every brilliance would allow any possibility until it is proven to be untrue. All intelligence allows all doors to remain open so that the truth can be found.

Whew, Lord Luof, I never said I didn't believe in God. In fact, my belief and faith in God run so deep that I doubt any could understand it. But, I don't think this is the Forum for such discussions, and I certainly don't try to push my beliefs on other people. People have a right to choose what they do and don't believe in. Free will.

As far as Covenant believing in God, I'd say he was closer to such a belief at the end of the 1st Chrons then he was at the beginning. Believing the Land was a dream was not the same as not believing in God. And I really don't see how it's relevant, unless you are trying to say that if he DID believe in God then his belief in the Land would be unquestionable and immediate. I don't see that. I know I would have a hard time believing this alternate reality was real if I was suddenly hurled into it. I'd think I was either in a coma, dreaming it all, or had slipped into complete madness.

Anyway, I'm not sure this is the proper place to discuss evolution verses creation. This may be better suited for the Think Tank or General Discussions.

This conservation has really turned into life philosophy and is really off track for this forum--I, personally, don't see much similarity to the bible whatsoever. I also resent the fact that you try to pigeon-hole me in any category-I don't have to believe in either evolution or the bible. I may respect Jesus as a great teacher and not see him as a savior, etc...You're jumping to alot of conclusions about alot of people. I may or may not believe in God-that's nobody's business. And whether TC believes in God or no is not an issue for me when read these books. I somehow have trouble understanding most of what you are saying or why you need to say it... I'm not trying to be mean or attack you--I'm very glad you are here at the Watch--I just don't I get it--but I'm alot different from alot of people out there--no wisecracks guys!

my head hurts...

I didn't specifically say "you" or name anyone. If I say we, you, or anything I mean the world, everyone.

At any rate, I'll say it again that The Chonicles is about a man sent by the creator to save the land from the despiser (named Satansheart by the Giants). I don't think it can said that it doesn't come from the Bible when the simularity is so obvious.

When you combine this with the fact that the Creator cannot save the people directly, then you have more simularites. I find this to be to blatent to have been some kind of mistake.


But the original intent of my question was, how the white gold was chosen. If God exists, then he can see past, present, anf future as if they were one, just as the Creator is outside the arch of time. Therefore, since the creator knows that covenant will give him his wedding band when they meet, he gave that information to the inhabitants of the land centuries ago (because time is a creation of his & he is beyond it and not bound to its laws, as if Covenant's act of kindness already happened far inthe past, because there is no "past"). What I'm saying is that it had nothing to do with wild magic or white gold, and that it all came to pass because of something that Thomas Covenant would do centuries into the future when he gives his very wedding ring to the Creator and the Creator is genuinely touched. Remember, Thomas Covenant is the white gold. It was always about him because of what he did when the Creator found him or was searching for him or whomever or whatever. I think it all comes down to Thomas first giving himself, his ring, offering him food, a place to stay, anything that he had. He was probably the only that even remotely came close at all.

I still think you're giving powers to the Creator that we see no evidence of. Your thought that, since the Creator "can see past, present, and future as if they were one" within the reality that he created must mean that he can do so for realities he did not create seems jumping the gun a bit. Being outside of the equivalent of any other Arch of Time does not necessarily mean that he can see into it the way he can see into his own.

People of the Land and its Earth knew of wild magic and white gold. Since nobody had ever seen either until Covenant got there, you may be right that the Creator gave them the knowledge, in the form of legends and songs. (I guess this is not the same as entering the Arch, which he cannot do without destroying it.) Maybe because he can see the entire lifespan of the Arch of Time at once, he saw that Covenant would show up, and decided to prepare the people. After all, if no white gold ever showed up, and wild magic was never brought to life, why would they need to know about them?

But the Creator could have done all that without ever knowing anything about Covenant's reality. He could have simply seen Covenant show up in his own creation.

And, since I'm the mod of a forum at the Hangar that deals specifically with the purely religious aspects of this discussion, I've started a thread there. I'd love it if you visit the thread.
pub189.ezboard.com/fahirashangarfrm18.showMessage?topicID=31.topic

Hello Lord Louf.

I'm with Danlo. Why? Why bring this to this particular forum. There are many places out there where this would be more suitable. Even on this site as someone said, the Think Tank or one of those places.

Now for my couple of pennies.

I also think that you are making some assumptions about people that you yourself say you know know nothing about, thereby making my use of the word think incorrect, it should be changed to know.

(yeah it makes sense, follow though) (that was fun)

Most of us at least those in the United States anyway have already heard all this before, and I thank you for stepping out and being foreward with your beliefs I think thats truly incredible when someone does that. However I don't believe it was neccessary in this case.

(Couple more pennies....)

People told me for years that I'd have to accept Jesus into my heart and all that. And others told me I'd go to hell if I didnt believe. And I know these are two very different groups of people, with a common bond though, their message is driven by the bible.

So I decided to read this book, and find out whats in there that has caused so many people to go to war, fight , kill and die over/for.

I have to say that I was more in touch with my spiritual side before I read the bible. Reading it caused me to in many cases hate, loath and despise the god that was depicted therein. I however choose to by ignorant and believe that God isn't such an *******...or a **** ******* *******.

One assumption you make is that if shown a sign people wouldnt believe. I HIGHLY disagree, I have never seen the president with my own eyes in person, I have never shaken his hand or heard his voice from 20 feet away. But I'm willing to bet that he exists and that if I took a stroll down Pennsylvania Avenue that there would be one bigass houe there.

If a burning bush started talking to me and telling me it was god. You had better believe that I would get down and pray. If an angel said to me that on the morrow I would see a girl by a well and that she would give water to my camels and all that. I'd believe. If he said hey kid, how you doing I'm God you have a nice one okay. And winked out of my plane of existence I'd believe. And I think most others would too. And why does it have to be on faith. Why can't it be fact? UIs it because the love for him and his creation wouldnt be true if it were just so, or fact or forced? The fact is I love my mother. I'd do almost anything for her, but that was not a choice I made it was fact, she was the one my dad got with and had me. I love her because shes my mother and she took decent care of me. HOWEVER, if she wasnt my mother, if she hadnt given birth to me, then I wouldn't give a damn, I might pass her on the street andnot think twice if she was homeless. And you say, well, you dont love her because she gave birth to you, you love her because she loved you, she cared for you. Well you know at least in the U.S. there are laws that says she has to do those things to a certain extent, it's not a choice. You see what I mean, love can be real without faith. God could say hey, here I am. And I could love him jsut as much, well, more, than if I just read about him. Because what's written isnt too pretty.

So faith is based on freewill. We have that, it's ours, its what God gave us.

Why didnt he give that same right to the Pharoah in Egypt. When Moses came and said, let my people go, what choice did the pharoah have? What chance for redemption did God give him. The answer ladies and gentleman, and I ASSURE YOU THIS IS CORRECT....is NONE. For some funny reason god didnt see it fit for him to have free will. No god...AND I QUOTE....."Hardened the heart of the pharoah against the people of Israel."

God made the pharoah say no. So you have this guy claiming ti want to save the israelites and yet hes not letting the man with the earthly power to set them free do so. He is infact enslaving them. God held the people in Egypt and in slavery NOT the pharoah, GOD DID.

And why? To prove to the people of Israel that he was capable of great wonders so that they would love him and believe in him and fear him and his great power. So this is all a big ego trip. okay fine I can get behind an ego issue. Everyone has one. I certainly do. And I was okay with the frogs and locusts and the boils and the hail that killed a few people, little messed up but, what the hell he has an ego to boost.

What made me want to "walk contrary" to the God of the Bible (notice the qualifier, of the bible) was when God, yes GOD, M-U-R-D-U-R-E-D..murdered, all the firstborn sons of Egypt, for his ego.

A man when I brought this up to him told me, it was because the people of Egypt were evil, burning their babies and all kinds of bad stuff, thats why he killed their children. well. okay. WHY NOT KILL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE DOING WRONG? WHY KILL CHILDREN? For his ego.

Yeah that's who I want to spend eternity with, a child murderer.

ANd when a man went into a town and hid silver under his tent against the word of God what did, God command Moses to do?

Kill the man and his wife, and his children.

HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN.

The man, okay, i think its a bit excessive but at least he did somthing wrong, but the children, why? What did they do, other than be born (thanks to the power of god the almighty) to a man who would later sin againt God? Nothing, the children were innocent.

And these are jsut the sinners. What about the great rewards for those that follow his word and do what he asks.

I once asked my brother if he believed he could be as holy as moses, to which he laughed and said no. I laughed and said well then you must be going to hell.

The reason I say this is because look at what Moses did for God. And the Israelites. He gets them out of Egypt, takes them trhough the wilderness, wanders around long enough for a whole genreation to die. then treks around for another like 700 years, listening to people argue, and trying to settle the disputes, trying to keep the people faithful to the God he believes in and would die for. And then when it comes time for Moses to cross the river Jordan and claim his prize, what he has come all this way and lived his whole life to see, one of the holiest men I've ever heard of?

What happens when he is just miles from the "promised land", God says, "you will not cross the river Jordan into the holy land."

God denies him just the feel of that sacred dirt beneath his feet. Those tears of achievement and joy, for doing the work of his god, his love, and bringing his people to the land of God.

God then when Moses questions and says why, God tells him to get onto a mountain, and tells him to look out over the holy land, and see it, this if truly worthy of the devil himself in my opinion.

Imagine a man living his whole life for a single moment, a place in time, standing on the mountain, windsweeping his long white hair from his brow. Robe fluttering behind, while he leans heavily on his staff. This old man looks out with tears in his eyes, on the verge of his moment, when a god comes down beside you and whispers in your ear softly..."you'll never get there.."

THAT MY FRIENDS IS THE GOD OF THE BIBLE. He seems an aweful lot like the Devil we all hear so much about. Actually believe it or not, if the devil really was contrary in every way to God, and God was like that, I would go get my satanic bible and start plotting with Satan the downfall of the true evil the biggest facade of all..God.

Grrr...I hate what the bible does to me.

anyway...as i said previously I do not believe that that is how god really is, I think the bible is false, at least I hope it is, and no I'm not satanic or anything, Ive actually always had a very strong connection to whats like this big feeling of warmth and love, and acceptance. I dont call it God. It's really just a neat feeling that I kinda talk to sometimes. That's my god I guess.

And that's all I have to say, there is PLENTY more where that came from the bible is full of god doing horrible things to people, those are just the ones that came to mind, I could easily write a book on this stuff. And as TOTAL PROOF if anyone would like direct quotes from the bible or passages they could look up, feel free to ask, I'd be more than happy to post. I say this onl;y because it seems like so many people lie about some of the things in the bible, but not directly lie, they just interpret things in weird ways. I assure you all of what Ive talked about is not assumed, it is STATED IN THE BIBLE. again these are not interpretationa these are statements and facts from the bible.

God killed a man and his family for the sins of only the man.

Denied moses the holy land.

Denied the pharoah of Egypt choice and freewill.

Killed the 1st born sons of the Egyptians.

Oh and I forgot to talk about this, this is a good one too, he kills a man because he touched the ark of god and he wasnt a levite.
So this man, loved god so much that he couldnt bear to see just a symbol of god fall to the ground, that when a donkey stumbled and the ark slid toward to ground, he grabbed for it and pushed it back up. He did that because he loved and res[pected God. And for that God himself killed him.



okay, thank you all, and thank you lord louf for that stimulating brain activity.


PLEASE NOTE IM NOT MAD, AT LEAST NOT ANYMORE, AND I WASNT MAD AT ANYONE.

Have a nice one guys...

In the immortal words of Bart Simpson: "Ay Carumba!"

That’s a good exercise of freewill. You’re free to hate God. Although, you hate the God of the Old Covenant. You don’t even appear to know the God of the New Covenant. The Law of the Old was made to show that none could live up to perfection. The Grace of the New is a gift, given freely to all that would simply accept it.

Again I’ll say that in SRD’s Chronicles that the Creator sent a man to save the land from the Despiser. I don’t understand how people can say to me, don’t talk about God because this isn’t the place when here we have a Creator of the Land in this story, where we have an undying evil being in this story, and where we have the land’s savior in this story. This book is religious. I’m sorry that I offend you by drawing such obvious conclusions. Perhaps if instead I spoke of pentagrams & sacrificing, boiling frogs and snakes, & looking into crystal balls that this would be a more accepted religion for you. Interesting how much distaste there is for God and how much acceptance there is for Satanic rituals.


Anyway, I don't want to talk here about it anymore although I brought it up. If you don't agree, let it die away. I feel that anything I say will be dissected like a dead frog, piece by piece, ripped apart & scrutinized. And that's not what I was after.

"Perhaps if instead I spoke of pentagrams & sacrificing..."

No that's the 2nd Chronicles, "The New Covenant", if you will... (just being silly! )

As a matter of fact in the beginning of the 2nd Chrons someone does say, "The day of judgement is upon us." Yes uses of religious allegory are present in the books. I don't, however, believe the bible has copyright on battles of "good" vs. "evil". You're free to interperate them any way you choose...I choose differently.

I believe you are misinterpreting the previous comments, we are not saying that this isn't the place to talk about God as it pertains to TCTC but that this whole, wonder with me fellows, bask in the radiant glory of the lord your God, come brother join me! That happy bull****. HA! I am sorry. That last comment was all in jest, it just flowed well.

You didn't offend me because as I stated I like expression, however one of the risks included when expressing yourself is disagreement. I just disagreed with all the preachy stuff about how great god is, and you put yourself down alot in there, saying there are others greater than you, that you are jsut a small man. I say damn that. You can be as great as your ambitions, but you need to dedicate to them. Another thing is that GOd gets all the credit for the good things we do, or great achievements, however it is our mortal faults when we do somthing wrong, I choose to own both my successes and failures, I am responsible for them not God.

However I do take offense, to the pentagrams frogs comment. If you had been utilizing a little bit more of the intelligence that God gave you, you may have seen where I stated that I was in no way affiliated or even interested in the occult. But we can't be perfect, Im sure glad that the old testament cleared that little confusion up for me.

I am also very aware of the New Testament. And appreciated your use of the word apper, its a good disclaimer, but I do also recall the Bible saying that God was a perfect God, which is of course contradicted several times in the bible. But I'll go with the perfect bit because it suits my argument, this means that God isn't allowed to say, oops I was wrong, it means that everything he did in the past and future were totally thought through and that he believed in them. He is okay murdering the innocent. I will not excuse him of that even if the book says he got more reasonable in the future, the fact is, is that God was at one time a child murderer.

I also don't see where the comment about the acceptance for Satanic rituals has an relevance what so ever, other than another unsuccesful attempt at a veiled insult.


I am willing to let this drop as well. And I also acknowledge that you have a very difficult position in this little debate, and I took a far easier one. You see I don't make any statements about the way things are I just disprove certain things about what your supporting. Because you see no one can gainsay what I said in my last post. I would give 1 million dollars to the first person that could validly and factually argue with the fact that God killed innocent people. Because in black and white fact it says he did. I jsut don't see how you can defend that.

I must say however that your comment about who knows what we may have done in Germany during WWII was very impressive, a question I've posed to others in a similar fasion. That shows that you are fearless in the more sensitive areas of debate. However no can argue with the fact that Nazi's suck. Almost as much as God. Sorry. I had to.


Yes we're bickering but let's not let this get personal okay louf?

I'm really a pretty cool person and I'm sure you are too. I like God, but my version of God, I don't like the one in the bible.

Good Day Friend

Welcome & Be True

danlo wrote:but I'm alot different from alot of people out there--no wisecracks guys!

I hope you noticed I let that one go.

Lord Luof wrote:Perhaps if instead I spoke of pentagrams & sacrificing, boiling frogs and snakes, & looking into crystal balls that this would be a more accepted religion for you.

To be fair, I think that anyone discussing those things here in order to promote them would be told that there are more appropriate places. And, as I said at the end of my second post on this thread, that appeared to be the point of your original post. But you have done a good job of showing connections between your beliefs and TCTC a couple times since then.

Lord Luof wrote:I don’t understand how people can say to me, don’t talk about God because this isn’t the place...

Don't worry about it. It isn't stopping some from continuing the discussion. ;)s at DR

danlo wrote:No that's the 2nd Chronicles, "The New Covenant", if you will... (just being silly! )

heh