Kevin's Watch

Whilst at the Ramen covert with TC, Lena is told that Elena, her daughter, is dead and that it was TC's "fault". Up to this point, she'd been unaware that her daughter was dead and she goes from hero worship of TC to hatred. Later when he slaps her she says "You slew Elena my daughter" and TC answers "Yes". His efforts to explain what he means by that are rebuffed. So essentially, Lena dies believing that TC killed Elena.

I have two issues here. Firstly, there is the issue that TC answers "Yes" to these questions rather than the more natural "No" (caveated with an explanation). Whilst I see that it is consistent with his desire that people stop forgiving him for his past acts, this seems to go too far. Does his guilt compel him to admit to something more than he is actually responsible for?

Secondly, despite Lena believing that TC killed Elena, at the last moment and with no warning she saves TC at the cost of her own life. Apart from the obvious point that she is (apart from the momentary sanity brought on by the knowledge of her daughter's death) somewhat deranged, what would possess her to forgive him in this situation? I know that she has spent a life time worshipping him and that would be difficult to reject, but she thinks that HE HAS MURDERED ELENA... and yet her final words are "I love you... I have not changed". Is the only significance the return of her delusion in her death throws and a plot device to further heap guilt and responsibility on TC in the face of an irrepressibly forgiving Land?

Barnetto wrote:Whilst at the Ramen covert with TC, Lena is told that Elena, her daughter, is dead and that it was TC's "fault". Up to this point, she'd been unaware that her daughter was dead and she goes from hero worship of TC to hatred. Later when he slaps her she says "You slew Elena my daughter" and TC answers "Yes". His efforts to explain what he means by that are rebuffed. So essentially, Lena dies believing that TC killed Elena.

I have two issues here. Firstly, there is the issue that TC answers "Yes" to these questions rather than the more natural "No" (caveated with an explanation). Whilst I see that it is consistent with his desire that people stop forgiving him for his past acts, this seems to go too far. Does his guilt compel him to admit to something more than he is actually responsible for?

It goes more with the change in TC that he "believes" or is taking responsibility rather for the Land.
In LFB he would have said "No" but we see that by the end of TIW TC has changed quite a bit.

Barnetto wrote:Secondly, despite Lena believing that TC killed Elena, at the last moment and with no warning she saves TC at the cost of her own life. Apart from the obvious point that she is (apart from the momentary sanity brought on by the knowledge of her daughter's death) somewhat deranged, what would possess her to forgive him in this situation? I know that she has spent a life time worshipping him and that would be difficult to reject, but she thinks that HE HAS MURDERED ELENA... and yet her final words are "I love you... I have not changed". Is the only significance the return of her delusion in her death throws and a plot device to further heap guilt and responsibility on TC in the face of an irrepressibly forgiving Land?

Lena has always believed that TC was the most important thing for the Land.
She's never been unable to put him before anything else.
So add that to her love for him and she can easily sacrifice herself for him in my opinion.

High Lord Tolkien wrote: Lena has always believed that TC was the most important thing for the Land.
She's never been unable to put him before anything else.
So add that to her love for him and she can easily sacrifice herself for him in my opinion.

I would completely accept that - up to the point that she believes he murdered her daughter. Yet a few moments earlier she is spitting hatred at TC. And she not only saves him (arguably necessary for a greater purpose, to save the Land), she returns to her state of besottedness... I guess she is just the ultimate in bipolar disorders.

IMO, at that point TC believes he did kill Elena. He made his bargain with himself to push Elena into saving the Land for him. The result was that Elena dared too much risk and got herself killed.

(It was this personal participation which, as HLT says, gets Covenant believing in his responsibility for the Land. It comes at him from this angle, unexectedly, bypassing his defenses.)

And I believe that Lena saved Covenant with her last life because he was the white gold weilder.

And because she still loved him. Despite what Covenant reveals, it is too soon to let go of the love, a love which she obsessed over and which held her life together.

And lastly, I believe that she wanted to die. The news of her daughter's death, and Covenant's culpability, left her with nothing to live for.

wayfriend wrote:IMO, at that point TC believes he did kill Elena. He made his bargain with himself to push Elena into saving the Land for him. The result was that Elena dared too much risk and got herself killed.

(It was this personal participation which, as HLT says, gets Covenant believing in his responsibility for the Land. It comes at him from this angle, unexectedly, bypassing his defenses.)

And I believe that Lena saved Covenant with her last life because he was the white gold weilder.

And because she still loved him. Despite what Covenant reveals, it is too soon to let go of the love, a love which she obsessed over and which held her life together.

And lastly, I believe that she wanted to die. The news of her daughter's death, and Covenant's culpability, left her with nothing to live for.

Just about. Remember, after she was raped, she hid so that Covenant could accomplish his "job" as savior of the Land. Her whole existence and that of nearly all the beauty loving inhabitants of the Land is that Covenant is the most important thing in the Land because he's the only one that can save and preserve it. Those who do not feel this way (like Trell) have despaired to the point of not only believing the Land is lost but in attempting to enact its destruction to somehow spare some part of it (in Pietten's case with the Ranyhyn) or destroying it before it is desecrated (like Trell).

As far as her last words... it's probable that she had reverted back to her insanity... she had to be in extreme pain and that was the way she had chosen to cope with the pain of Covenant's rape and betrayal, and that is what she reverted to in her death pains.

And Elena was her mother's daughter.
They all forgave Covenant for horrific crimes.
Atiaran because she believed him above her, hoping that the Lords would punish, in part.
Atiaran didn't forgive, per se, but did forego her vengeance. ANd if you believe Elena, Atiaran lusted after Covenant or his ring after he left the land.

SGuilfoyle1966 wrote:And Elena was her mother's daughter.
They all forgave Covenant for horrific crimes.
Atiaran because she believed him above her, hoping that the Lords would punish, in part.
Atiaran didn't forgive, per se, but did forego her vengeance. ANd if you believe Elena, Atiaran lusted after Covenant or his ring after he left the land.

Right. Their whole family had been beaten up so badly by Covenant. The only way that they could survive such horrible harm was to believe that it was a sacrifice made so that Covenant could save the Land. So, in their minds, Covenant needed to save the Land, to make their sacrifices meaningful.

So, Lena would give her life to ensure that Covenant didn't fail. Atiaran would devote her life to getting Covenant back.

Trell didn't go that way. So, as Orlion points out, he fell to despair. The conclusion you could reach is that such sacrifices as Lena and Atiaran made for Covenant were more life-affirming than Trell's continued nursing of a deserved-nonetheless grievance.

wayfriend wrote:So, Lena would give her life to ensure that Covenant didn't fail. Atiaran would devote her life to getting Covenant back.

Don't disagree with that but my sticking point is that Lena not only saved him, but she then went on to say she still loved him. I can see completely the possibility that, despite her hatred of him for killing Elena (as she sees it), she would save him for the sake of the Land. But that doesn't necessitate her then going on to have a complete emotional volte face and love him too. Atiaran ensured that he did what he had to for the Land without (at least in LFB) letting her emotional dislike of him get in the way, but that didn't require her to forgive/like him.

It's the sudden "murderer back to lifelong love" situation that I find difficult, unless it was just a return of the long term madness in her death throes. I was just delving to see if anyone saw any greater significance in that volte face.

Barnetto wrote:

wayfriend wrote:So, Lena would give her life to ensure that Covenant didn't fail. Atiaran would devote her life to getting Covenant back.

Don't disagree with that but my sticking point is that Lena not only saved him, but she then went on to say she still loved him. I can see completely the possibility that, despite her hatred of him for killing Elena (as she sees it), she would save him for the sake of the Land. But that doesn't necessitate her then going on to have a complete emotional volte face and love him too. Atiaran ensured that he did what he had to for the Land without (at least in LFB) letting her emotional dislike of him get in the way, but that didn't require her to forgive/like him.

It's the sudden "murderer back to lifelong love" situation that I find difficult, unless it was just a return of the long term madness in her death throes. I was just delving to see if anyone saw any greater significance in that volte face.

Once again, I don't think Lena truly loved TC after the rape... her obsession was just a means to deal with the pain... and as SGuilfoyle1966 pointed out, Elena essentially did the same thing. She became obsessive with Covenant deal with the pain that the knowledge of her origin brought about, and we all know what we call that: insanity. What's truly tragic about Elena's case is that she was perfectly capable on her own to be a great High Lord, her abilities should have been enough justify her existence...but she couldn't see that...

Orlion wrote:Once again, I don't think Lena truly loved TC after the rape... her obsession was just a means to deal with the pain...

That must be right on many levels, but her actions go from obsessive (madness inspired) love to spitting hatred back to professed love in remarkably short order. I guess I'm concluding that the momentary clarity that came with the revelation of Elena's death just disappeared as she lay dying.

Barnetto wrote:

Orlion wrote:Once again, I don't think Lena truly loved TC after the rape... her obsession was just a means to deal with the pain...

That must be right on many levels, but her actions go from obsessive (madness inspired) love to spitting hatred back to professed love in remarkably short order. I guess I'm concluding that the momentary clarity that came with the revelation of Elena's death just disappeared as she lay dying.

That sounds about right to me. Her madness had control of her mind longer than her clarity... and it's not like she had the strength to retain it.

As I said above, I don't think that her love could disappear so instantly, even if she had learned something about Covenant that she would despise. Not when her love was such a foundation of her life. And not when her love was SO not connected to reality: what the real TC does probably had no effect on her perception of the-TC-in-her-mind-who-loves-her.

She loved him after he raped her, after all.

wayfriend wrote:As I said above, I don't think that her love could disappear so instantly, even if she had learned something about Covenant that she would despise. Not when her love was such a foundation of her life. And not when her love was SO not connected to reality: what the real TC does probably had no effect on her perception of the-TC-in-her-mind-who-loves-her.

She loved him after he raped her, after all.

Perfect answer. Great question.

wayfriend wrote:IMO, at that point TC believes he did kill Elena. He made his bargain with himself to push Elena into saving the Land for him. The result was that Elena dared too much risk and got herself killed.

(It was this personal participation which, as HLT says, gets Covenant believing in his responsibility for the Land. It comes at him from this angle, unexectedly, bypassing his defenses.)

And I believe that Lena saved Covenant with her last life because he was the white gold weilder.

And because she still loved him. Despite what Covenant reveals, it is too soon to let go of the love, a love which she obsessed over and which held her life together.

And lastly, I believe that she wanted to die. The news of her daughter's death, and Covenant's culpability, left her with nothing to live for.

Cant really say it any better than this. I agree.

But Bannor said, "You also caused the fall of High Lord Elena. You refused the burden of the Blood of Command and so she fell."

This is when Lena learned of the death of her daughter, but read the words...it doesn't say TC slew Elena, nor did he directly cause her death. I think when Lena questioned TC about this and he answered honestly (as he saw it) she understood that there was no malice in her death. The pain on his face was obvious.

As far as saving his life, she HAD to..she believed he was Berek reborn and the only hope in the land. She was certainly her mothers daughter, in that respect. And Elena also.

Has anyone noticed the way SRD uses scenes like rhyme in a poem! It's the first time I've noticed this one.

(from the chapter, Pariah)
As he flopped on to his back, he saw Pietten standing over him with the spear clenched like a spike in both hands.

(from the chapter, Lomillialor)
Triock was standing over him. The Stonedowner held his lomillialor rod as if he meant to drive it like a spike between Covenant's eyes.