Kevin's Watch

I don't start many threads, but there are certain things that are accepted/assumed that just bug me [I'd have put this in pet peeves, but they're more serious than that for me]. Just wondering if others have this problem, and about what. A couple of mine, by way of example:

"It's common sense." This doesn't bother me because [as someone said] too bad it isn't common, but because it so often isn't freaking SENSE.

"Power corrupts...." Horsepuckey. Power, like gravity or an attractive female [or male] is not moral, immoral, or amoral..it is there, and is completely non-moral. Power doesn't corrupt people, people corrupt power.

"Respect is earned." I have a lot of problems with this, not all related to each other, but I'll just leave it without comment.

I'm not exactly sure where you are heading with this, but I'm pretty sure you just said attractive people have no morals.

Kalkin wrote:I'm not exactly sure where you are heading with this, but I'm pretty sure you just said attractive people have no morals.

Not so much that they don't have morals, but that attractiveness, in of itself, has no moral value.

I kinda know what you mean, Vraith. Something being "common sense" is usually only so in reference to what sense is to that person. I've also had problem with Power corrupts... if they happen to be religious, ask people what that makes of God (after all, absolute power corrupts absolutely. )

Power corrupts means (in my understanding) that it generally leads to a sense of superiority, wherein one tends to ignore rules or conventions that one finds...bothersome, as the normal consequences are avoided by either exercise of power, or attempts to curry favor because of the power one has. Power, in and of itself is value-neutral, true. However, it can be seen as a catalyst for the degradation of morality/ethics in virtually all people to SOME degree. Just as guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Common sense is anything but.

Common sense is what tells you that the earth is flat.

Dunno about the "earned respect" one. Maybe in certain senses...there is a kind of respect that we owe each other as human beings, sure. But all other kinds should be earned.

--A

Orlion wrote:Not so much that they don't have morals, but that attractiveness, in of itself, has no moral value.

I got that, I was being a smartass.

Common sense refers to knowledge that can be gotten without any special training, and that can be assumed that any adult understands. It is common sense to not spit into the wind, for example. And I would suggest that any adult who needs more than one try to prove this saying needs serious help. Common, in this case not necessarily meaning everyone has it, just that they should have it, and it usually does make sense.

The sayings being referred to are proverbs, with the exception of:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." ~ Lord Acton

He was observing that power, or the trappings of power, are seductive. Though power itself cannot be said to be able to do anything, he is simplifying things. Men who acheive power almost always use that power for their own ends, and the more power they have, the more they abuse. How many times do we see young, ideological Congressmen go to Washington just to become carbon copies of those they replace?

Respect is earned. I actually go along with this. Showing courtesy is what people often are talking about when they say showing respect. In a sense, I show common courtesy to people I meet. I don't necessarily respect them, as such, because how can I if I don't know them? After they show me their character, then I respect them. By the same token, I show courtesy even to people I have good reason to not respect, because it's the right thing to do.

Av said:

Dunno about the "earned respect" one. Maybe in certain senses...there is a kind of respect that we owe each other as human beings, sure. But all other kinds should be earned.

--A

I am kind of interested in this kind of respect we owe each other as human beings that you posit :)

Actually, what on earth does respect mean? Not in the trivial 'what does anything mean?' way, but in general, it seems very hard to put my finger on.

It seems like 'appropriate' respect is correctly observing Something in your subject and acting accordingly.
We call something respect, but the more I think about it, the more I suspect that word is absolutely meaningless. Like saying something is 'deluxe'


seriously, what on earth does that word mean on the day to day?

You do pop up at the most unexpected times don't you? Nice to see you around.

You pose an interesting question. Maybe the kind of respect I mean is the same as equality. Treat everybody equally, the way you would like to be treated. It's all just life doing its best.

I'll have to think about it.

--A

Yeah I originally thought of posting just to be the usual devil's advocate, but this has been really bugging me.

The idea of language and defining words has come up quite a bit recently. And yes, its a good question.

Well, here's the apparent definition:

# (usually preceded by `in') a detail or point; "it differs in that respect"
# esteem: the condition of being honored (esteemed or respected or well regarded); "it is held in esteem"; "a man who has earned high regard"
# an attitude of admiration or esteem; "she lost all respect for him"
# deference: a courteous expression (by word or deed) of esteem or regard; "his deference to her wishes was very flattering"; "be sure to give my respects to the dean"
# obedience: behavior intended to please your parents; "their children were never very strong on obedience"; "he went to law school out of respect for his father's wishes"
# regard highly; think much of; "I respect his judgement"; "We prize his creativity"
# regard: a feeling of friendship and esteem;

Maybe that'll give us something to work from.

--A

In most respects , the problem is that it should be more like equality, as Av said.
You [all general you's] make several moves when you say it is earned, though, one of which is your own superiority [innate, in your own is-ness].


On power as a catalyst: the root/possibility of corruption is still
within the person.

When I say 'I respect your ideas' I mean either 'you agree with me' or 'I am going to agree with you, and did all along, and don't remind me of that post I made four pages ago'.

When a politician respects their opponent, what they mean is that you should think "That man is respectful" which is generally agreed to be a good thing, even if it means absolutely nothing.

What commands respect? (awkward, commands respect is a passive kinda thing that indicates the person who is respectful had no choice in the matter) Power, and stuff you think is good (ethically or what-have-you).

It seems to be related to either fear or trust.

How about this:

To respect something is to acknowledge it's potential to impact you.

Don't go along with that. If you respect someone, it means you hold them and their ideals as somewhat more valuable than others.

If someone commands respect, it means that they are of such a high caliber that people tend to respect him.

There is usage such as, "show some respect" which should probably be, "show courtesy."

Plus, you can respect someone's opinion and not agree with it.

Does that mean you respect their opinion, or their right to have one?

The second, yes. The first, depends on the person.

I think we should respect everybodies right to have an opinion. But that doesn't mean you agree with it. I think it's also possible to respect an opinion without agreeing with it though.

--A

Seven Words wrote:Power corrupts means (in my understanding) that it generally leads to a sense of superiority, wherein one tends to ignore rules or conventions that one finds...bothersome, as the normal consequences are avoided by either exercise of power, or attempts to curry favor because of the power one has.

Mmmmmmmmmmm....curry. I could murder a curry.


Sorry, what were we discussing?

Cagliostro wrote:

Seven Words wrote:Power corrupts means (in my understanding) that it generally leads to a sense of superiority, wherein one tends to ignore rules or conventions that one finds...bothersome, as the normal consequences are avoided by either exercise of power, or attempts to curry favor because of the power one has.

Mmmmmmmmmmm....curry. I could murder a curry.


Sorry, what were we discussing?

How we respect your right to an opinion about curry.

I tend to think that "I respect your right to an opinion" is usually followed by a sotto voce "you moron".

Avatar wrote:I think we should respect everybodies right to have an opinion. But that doesn't mean you agree with it. I think it's also possible to respect an opinion without agreeing with it though.

--A

As I said, yes. I use a preemptive agreement.