Kevin's Watch

Firstly, I'm not trying to be funny here. This is probably explained in the book and I've just missed it. If it is you can beat me with a stick or something.

Since white gold is not a naturally occurring element how do the people of the land know of it and its powers? Or does it exist naturally in the land?

I've not read the 2nd chronicles yet - trying to get round to it - is it explained there?

There are people who come on this site who will answer this question WAY better than me but untill they do I think I am right in saying that details of the white gold and it's powers were passed down to the inhabitants of the land via myth and legend - possibly also through the Lore contained in Kevins Wards. I remember one 'song' that spoke of the white gold that would save or destroy (or words to that effect) that every one that TC encountered seemed to know.

peter wrote:There are people who come on this site who will answer this question WAY better than me but untill they do I think I am right in saying that details of the white gold and it's powers were passed down to the inhabitants of the land via myth and legend - possibly also through the Lore contained in Kevins Wards. I remember one 'song' that spoke of the white gold that would save or destroy (or words to that effect) that every one that TC encountered seemed to know.

Far as I recall, this is pretty much correct. Unless I missed something, the knowledge/existence is never really explained, so I'd always assumed the song and knowledge were derived from vision/oracular sources, [in my own mind, the predictor/song-writer was an unfettered, but that's just me] not from anyones actual experience with white gold before TC's arrival.

What I want to know is how did they know it was White Gold, instead of Silver? It's not like he took it off or held it up to people's faces to appraise it, mostly he tried to avoid people even seeing it.

Is because they see the power through their "health sense"? Or just because they knew nothing of silver, therefore it must be White Gold?

What if someone came to the land with a silver ring, and the people of the Land thought it was White Gold? What would be the ramifications of that mistake?

I think this is one of the big unexplained things, and that you're not going to find too much of an explanation of it anywhere.

And one of the reasons that might be, beyond a simple artistic shrug and saying 'it wasn't necessary information to tell the story', is that it is very much tied up with whether or not the Land is real, and what the Land's relationship is with Covenant.

Surely, if we knew the answer to this, then we would be closer to knowing if the Land is real or a dream. If the nature of the Land is influenced by who Covenant is and what he has, that makes it more likely to be a dream. And if it is not, that makes it more likely to be real. So I think Donaldson tries to not explore this.

As for myself, I believe that if the Creator made the Arch of Time and used wild white magic gold as the keystone, and if the early Lords were able to expand their lore and learn about how the Earth was made, then they would learn about wild white magic gold as a matter of due course.

We might also ask, how does anyone in the Land even know about the Creator? Or the Arch of Time?

Then there's the notion that the Creator himself supplied the information, as "inspiration" or "scripture" of some sort. We know that the Creator "guided" Berek at the time Berek made the first Staff of Law.

Excellent post as always WF.

My guess:

That Au is known in the land (an assumption of mine) and white gold is not, might allude to the presupposed lack of metallurgic knowledge of The Land. Something that lends credence to a more "primitive" science working there. An authorial trick often pulled in fantasy (and in sci-fi where it often appears anacronistic), where less tangible (magic) forces are at work.

SRD might have chosen to let copper be the "magic metal". That would have been less believeable, since copper is a common metal. The inclusion of a rare metal alloy (palladium/gold) makes it go down more easily.

The first chronicles are filled with inconsistancies, flaws, major and minor mistakes, that i believe are mainly deliberate.

for example, why was there only Covenant and Atairan at the Celebration of Spring. i mean, that's like Pink Floyd doing a free concert in the park and only a leper and a world-weary midwife showing up!

...but back to the subject of the white gold ring,

could it be something to do with the mistake Lord Foul made at the Summoning. He was telling Covenant about ridding the Creator of the Earth with the wild magic, as if he were thinking out loud not realizing what he was saying.

or, it has to do with the Giants. Foamfollower's parents knew Kevin, for sure. And Kevin put the knowledge of the white gold in the first ward.

white gold is known to the urviles and the wyalim? and some lords study there lore

jackgiantkiller wrote:white gold is known to the urviles and the wyalim

The urviles can't make white gold. Their skill is with iron, i think!

The Waynhim, on the other hand, work with both wood and stone. I'm sure they don't mine metals.

- Kevin really messed things up, didn't he!

Krazy Kat wrote:The urviles can't make white gold. Their skill is with iron, i think!

Agree Krazy Kat, that Urviles work with iron but don't think this negates Jack's proposition that they would have had knowledge of the white gold. As descendants of the lore-wise Viles and as 'burrowers' of the sub-terranian realms it seems likely to me that they would have at least passing knowledge of most of what goes on beneath the surface of the earth.

I apologize if I'm misunderstanding what I'm reading here, but it seems what everyones missing is: it isn't a lack of technology/lore/knowledge, it is that whatever the knowleldge/myth/lore about white gold, it is impossible to find or create it within that world, it has to come from outside the Arch. If that were not the case, TC would be completely unnecessary...LF has all the tools/servants/power he needs to find/make it. [whether this is because an essential ingredient is missing or the nature of the Lands physics/magic prohibits it or something else isn't explained anywhere, As far as I recall.]

The urviles know of white gold they dont use it, when the whymen attacks covernant in TIEW it is cos he knows covernasnt has power and refuses to use it in defence of the land, the urviles can small white gold ps u hot kaz

Vraith wrote:I apologize if I'm misunderstanding what I'm reading here, but it seems what everyones missing is: it isn't a lack of technology/lore/knowledge, it is that whatever the knowleldge/myth/lore about white gold, it is impossible to find or create it within that world, it has to come from outside the Arch. If that were not the case, TC would be completely unnecessary...LF has all the tools/servants/power he needs to find/make it. [whether this is because an essential ingredient is missing or the nature of the Lands physics/magic prohibits it or something else isn't explained anywhere, As far as I recall.]

Yes, but Vraith - the question is not about whether white gold can be found within the land or not, it is about how the KNOWLEDGE of white gold comes to be within the Land given that it is not a naturally occuring element even in our world (it is an alloy of gold and nickel or palladium). The question is asking 'How could this Knowledge come to a place where the concept of it cannot even exist' and from this point of view it is a fair question.

jackgiantkiller wrote:The urviles know of white gold they dont use it, when the whymen attacks covernant in TIEW it is cos he knows covernasnt has power and refuses to use it in defence of the land, the urviles can small white gold ps u hot kaz

Woah Jack man... What are you on fella! Don't get me wrong man but your sounding stranger than a March hare at the beginning of April. Are you for real or is that some kind of gag thing

peter wrote:

Vraith wrote:I apologize if I'm misunderstanding what I'm reading here, but it seems what everyones missing is: it isn't a lack of technology/lore/knowledge, it is that whatever the knowleldge/myth/lore about white gold, it is impossible to find or create it within that world, it has to come from outside the Arch. If that were not the case, TC would be completely unnecessary...LF has all the tools/servants/power he needs to find/make it. [whether this is because an essential ingredient is missing or the nature of the Lands physics/magic prohibits it or something else isn't explained anywhere, As far as I recall.]

Yes, but Vraith - the question is not about whether white gold can be found within the land or not, it is about how the KNOWLEDGE of white gold comes to be within the Land given that it is not a naturally occuring element even in our world (it is an alloy of gold and nickel or palladium). The question is asking 'How could this Knowledge come to a place where the concept of it cannot even exist' and from this point of view it is a fair question.

Yea...that was the original question, or course, it just seemed to be drifting from that. Most of the hints are that the origination of that knowledge was oracular/inspired/visionary: IIRC when Mhoram first speaks of white gold to TC, he basically says "not much is known about it" and then the song/story with white gold and wild magic and "graven in every rock"...the point is that this piece of "Lore" is prophecy.

I'd go so far as to say ALL the Lore is like that, that almost none is "trial and error" "experimental refinement"... it is direct insight, visceral and personal.
And, indirectly, white gold IS "natural" to the world...not as an element(s), but as the thing that makes its existence possible, and its effects are, literally, everywhere.
To me, asking how they could know about white gold is the same as asking how they could have healthsense, how they could use earthpower, how could they have any lore at all.

I dont recall anyone in the land having been described as wearing a ring, its possible that Rings being worn on the fingers was an unusual if not unused custom in the land. so if no one wears rings and someone sees someone wearing a ring of Silver/Whitegold it may be their first thought... I think i recall the Gaddhi wearing rings and the Kemper using rings of Gold for power. but I dont recall anyone having a ring outside Brathairain harbor. I could be wrong, but when TC finally pulled his ring out at Revelstone didnt he jam it on his finger and raise it into the air? and Atiaran saw the ring on his finger and asked what is that ring on your finger made of??? as if she was unsure but had ideas considering TC just came from Kevins watch.

Another thought: when you have a world created by a deity, filled with people created by a deity, then those people could have knowledge or thoughts ... created by a deity. In other words, the Creator could have created the people of the world with this knowledge "built in". Built in, but obscure, revealed only to those who search within themselves. Like the Elder Eddas in another story.

peter wrote:

Vraith wrote:I apologize if I'm misunderstanding what I'm reading here, but it seems what everyones missing is: it isn't a lack of technology/lore/knowledge, it is that whatever the knowleldge/myth/lore about white gold, it is impossible to find or create it within that world, it has to come from outside the Arch. If that were not the case, TC would be completely unnecessary...LF has all the tools/servants/power he needs to find/make it. [whether this is because an essential ingredient is missing or the nature of the Lands physics/magic prohibits it or something else isn't explained anywhere, As far as I recall.]

Yes, but Vraith - the question is not about whether white gold can be found within the land or not, it is about how the KNOWLEDGE of white gold comes to be within the Land given that it is not a naturally occuring element even in our world (it is an alloy of gold and nickel or palladium). The question is asking 'How could this Knowledge come to a place where the concept of it cannot even exist' and from this point of view it is a fair question.

Spoiler

U and I know the answer in the last chronicals!

but you must admit that the demonddim know WG!!!!

Ware Final Chronicles spoilers here!

This is a good topic and some very valid points.
But atlast, it need to be in another forum..