Kevin's Watch

This is an idea I've had kicking around in my head for years now.
Anyone who references to the movies should kill themselves before posting.

Lets think about it.
Why did Sauron want them so bad?

Nenya: Affected or manipulated Time
Vilya: Power to heal and to preserve
Narya Uplifted the Spirit

(lets not get bogged down of the specific "powers" of the Rings. For the most part they were created for preservation and renewal in some fashion).


Sauron shared/gained his knowledge with those Elves who created most of the Rings. Even though he had no part in the 3's creations they were crafted in the same way, same "template" if you will or they wouldn't have fallen under the power of the One. But Sauron must have lacked the skill to make them himself or he would have from the beginning.

What I find interesting is that Celebrimbor (grandson of Feanor) created the 3 and (like Feanor creating the Silmarils) lost no "essence" of himself.
No part of him other than his skill and passion went into the Rings to create them.
Whereas Sauron needed to put a large part of his very being, his essence into the One to make it powerful enough to control the 3 (and the other Rings).
Celebrimbor was total badass.

The One Ring was created specifically to control the other Rings. It was only a weapon indirectly.
Any "power" augmentation gained by Sauron wearing it never helped him. He was defeated 3 times in three different wars.
It did increase a wearers native powers to a degree though.
Galadriel hinted she would have been transformed into something greater than herself if she had it.
Even possession by a user skilled enough to wield it fully was not a guarantee win against Sauron.
Tolkien himself said that of anyone only Gandalf, wielding the One Ring could have defeated Sauron in a one-on-one match against each other and even then it was unsure.

I say this to point out that Sauron didn't make the One Ring as a weapon of war either.
It all goes back to the 3.
Why?

Here's my idea.

Morgoth lost part of himself. His essence bled out of him as he marred Arda in the Ages before the Elves and Man. That was the fate of the Valar that as the ages pass they would become more and more unto the Earth. By the time of the Last Battle Morgoth was so spent or used up controlling his armies and corrupting the Earth that he was defeated by a "mere" herald of the Valar and a host of Elves whereas before all the Valar went to war and Tulkas himself had to wrestle Morgoth to the ground.

Time was the enemy to the Elves and the Valar.
They are bound to the world, becoming a part of it.
They all know weariness and they all need rest.
And these are immortal beings.
Tolkien said that they would, in the long span of time, *ENVY* the Gift of Man.

Knowing that lets look at Sauron.
He knew all of this.
He wanted to rule the world forever.
What was his one enemy that he couldn't defeat?
Time and the weariness that comes with it, neither Elf or Valar were free of.

What did the 3 Rings do?
In a sense, defeat Time.
That's why he wanted them, imho.

And hell, he needed them all badly.
His body had been destroyed (killed) twice.

Any thoughts?

By the time of the Last Battle Morgoth was so spent or used up controlling his armies and corrupting the Earth that he was defeated by a "mere" herald of the Valar and a host of Elves whereas before all the Valar went to war and Tulkas himself had to wrestle Morgoth to the ground.

Ok, I'll get back on topic soon, but how do you get this? Are you talking about the last battle of the First Age? Because if you are, the Valar still had to come in and completely destroy a good portion of the continent "Beleriand" in order to capture him and defeat his armies. Elves were involved, but it was mostly a battle of the gods, as it were.

Whew! Now for the actual topic:

What I find interesting is that Celebrimbor (grandson of Feanor) created the 3 and (like Feanor creating the Silmarils) lost no "essence" of himself.
No part of him other than his skill and passion went into the Rings to create them.
Whereas Sauron needed to put a large part of his very being, his essence into the One to make it powerful enough to control the 3 (and the other Rings).

Throughout the entire Tolkien saga, there has always been a theme of art vs magic (or subjugation). When Feanor or Celebrimbor created the Silmarils or the 3 rings respectively, they were creating art, or beauty, which added to existence. As a result, their efforts didn't cost them any of their essence, but rather added essence to the environment. Sauron and Morgoth, however, were always trying to subjugate and control things as oppose to adding to their beauty. As a result, they had to expend themselves in order to do so which resulted in their weakening and subsequent defeat.

As far as to your theory... permit me to do a quick reread on the pertinent documents

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Anyone who references to the movies should kill themselves before posting.

RIP DW... 19xx-2010

All righty, I found the following on p. 288 of the 2nd edition of The Silmarillion:

...and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them [Narya, Nenay, and Vilya], for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.

Furthermore, the section quoted explains that Sauron made the One Ring as a means of knowing the actions of the wearers of the lesser rings and to control them. However, when he tried to put this plan into action, the Elves knew it and took off the rings. Sauron managed to recover some of them and used them to enslave some dwarves and men. However, the Three Rings of Power in question, he wasn't directly involved in the process, so it wasn't as easy to control them.

Ultimately, I think the Three Elven Rings are what maintained the three hidden kingdoms of the Noldor... The Grey Havens, Rivendell, and Lothlorien. These hidden kingdoms Sauron considered the greater obstacles to his domination of Middle-Earth, and thus he desired the Three Rings that powered them, for if he could have them or corrupt them, these elven kingdoms would fall and there wouldn't really be anything to prevent him from possessing Middle-Earth.

are you saying he wanted to destroy the arch of time, HLT??

I've always believed that Sauron enticed the Elves into making the rings so he could ensnare them. As the Elves weren't as gullible as the other races, he had to entice them with something very real. Something that they would desire enough to go forward with the idea. So his plan had to include that the Elven rings would actually be useful and helpful to the Elves. Of course, if all went according to plan, it would not matter.

Therefore, Sauron's plan included teaching the Elves how to build what they desired. He had to follow the path of good, until he could spring his trap. The Elves would be suspicious of anything less.

So whatever power lay in the Elven rings was placed there by the Elves themselves. Sauron guided their making, but he did not make them. However, he did show the way to the Elves to put their power into the rings. They might not have had to the skill to do it otherwise. But the power nonetheless came from the Elves who made them.

We know Sauron lost of himself when he made the One Ring. The Elves may or may not have. It may be that such power, when not oriented towards domination or enslavement, does not subtract from the maker. Or it may be that the makers had to pay that price, and were made somewhat less by creating the Three.

But either way, the power of the Three was originally with the Elves who made it. It was amplified and made more secure by weilding the rings. But it could not have been if the Elves didn't have the foundations of that power within themselves. The One Ring is described as increasing the strengths one already has; the three must work the same.

So any power over time, and to resist decay and waning, must in some sense have been with the Elves all along.

So the question HLT is asking, really, is this: Did Sauron's plan include capturing and using this power of the Elves? Or did he care only that the longing of the Elves for time was a sufficient lure for their ensnarement?

Surely, removing the threat of the Elves, or of even coercing the Elves to do his bidding, is sufficiently beneficial to his plans that you could argue he needed no further goal.

Also, we need to ask this: does Sauron, or Morgoth for that matter, fear the decay of time as the Elves do?

I think not. I think that the decay that Elves fear is caused by none other than Morgoth, Sauron, and all the forces of chaos and evil that curse Middle Earth. I think that what the Elves hold dear is precisely that which Sauron despises, and what the Elves risist is precisely that for which Sauron strives. Sauron and Morgoth want to unmake the Earth and remake it in their own vision; they don't wish to preserve Eru's vision which the Elves cherish. Those bad guys want to usurp the power of the Creator, and have it for themselves - that's what Morgoth desired ever since the Song.

So, in the end, I think Sauron's plan for the three was nothing more than the downfall of the Elves. He wasn't trying to wrest from them any power over time and decay. He was only trying to eliminate his foes.

[Edit to add] Immediately on pressing submit, it also occurred to me that perhaps Sauron was attempting to remake the Elves in the way Morgoth once tried. Only in a more subtle way.

Orlion wrote:

By the time of the Last Battle Morgoth was so spent or used up controlling his armies and corrupting the Earth that he was defeated by a "mere" herald of the Valar and a host of Elves whereas before all the Valar went to war and Tulkas himself had to wrestle Morgoth to the ground.

Ok, I'll get back on topic soon, but how do you get this? Are you talking about the last battle of the First Age? Because if you are, the Valar still had to come in and completely destroy a good portion of the continent "Beleriand" in order to capture him and defeat his armies. Elves were involved, but it was mostly a battle of the gods, as it were.

Yeah, sorry. last battle of the First Age.

I reread the last chapter yesterday.
The Vanyar were assembled under the banners of the Valar. No mention was made of the Valar actually going back to Middle Earth for that but due to the Earth being remade I would assume that there was a large host of at least Maiar as well.

wayfriend wrote:I've always believed that Sauron enticed the Elves into making the rings so he could ensnare them. As the Elves weren't as gullible as the other races, he had to entice them with something very real. Something that they would desire enough to go forward with the idea. So his plan had to include that the Elven rings would actually be useful and helpful to the Elves. Of course, if all went according to plan, it would not matter.

That's the traditional view.
But once the Elves knew the plan why go to war to get the Rings if they were of no personal use to Sauron?
I know he wanted to wipe the Elves out at that point as well and if it wasn't for the timely aid of the Numenoreans probably would have.

wayfriend wrote:So whatever power lay in the Elven rings was placed there by the Elves themselves. Sauron guided their making, but he did not make them. However, he did show the way to the Elves to put their power into the rings. They might not have had to the skill to do it otherwise. But the power nonetheless came from the Elves who made them.

This I disagree with.
It was never explained what he shared and what the Elves shared with him. And I don't think that Celebrimbor put any of his "power" into the 3 Rings. No where that I'm aware of does Tolkien show that Elves have powers beyond the fire of their spirits or some type of skill or craft.
Those Noldor who saw the light of the Trees had a special "holyness" or purity that gave them better strength of wills to them but had no superpowers beyond normal elves.

wayfriend wrote:We know Sauron lost of himself when he made the One Ring. The Elves may or may not have. It may be that such power, when not oriented towards domination or enslavement, does not subtract from the maker. Or it may be that the makers had to pay that price, and were made somewhat less by creating the Three.

Only Celebrimbor made the 3 unless I'm misremembering.
Now the power that Sauron put into the One is an interesting concept.
He did it to enable the One to have the power to command the Three.
But why?
To take command of the powers of the 3 Rings (usurp their power) AND to rule the Elves that were wearing them?
Would he have gained their power as well?
Or was the whole thing just to control the wearers of any Rings?
Were the powers incorporated with each Ring, 3, 7, or 9 of no interest to Sauron?
Was it all about just controlling the users?

wayfriend wrote:The One Ring is described as increasing the strengths one already has; the three must work the same.

So any power over time, and to resist decay and waning, must in some sense have been with the Elves all along.

Elves were immortal from their creation. It wasn't a power they had.

wayfriend wrote:So the question HLT is asking, really, is this:

Dude.....not cool and not accurate.

wayfriend wrote:Also, we need to ask this: does Sauron, or Morgoth for that matter, fear the decay of time as the Elves do?

Tolkien said that the Elves and Valar would envy the Gift given to Men.
That's the genesis of my question.
That's why I think the 3 were so important to Sauron.

Morgoth just turned bat shit insane at the end there.
Sauron was all about control and rule.
And until Sauron put a portion of his powers into the Ring he was only expending a small part of himself to control his forces. Much of the "power" needed to do was was leftover from Melkor's previous corruption of the Earth.
But he still had to worry about time and personal expenditure.

wayfriend wrote: So, in the end, I think Sauron's plan for the three was nothing more than the downfall of the Elves. He wasn't trying to wrest from them any power over time and decay. He was only trying to eliminate his foes.

Again, that's the traditional view.
Most would agree with that I think.

wayfriend wrote:[Edit to add] Immediately on pressing submit, it also occurred to me that perhaps Sauron was attempting to remake the Elves in the way Morgoth once tried. Only in a more subtle way.

That's where I think that idea fails.
He would only be able to control the 3 who wore the Rings.
The rest of the Elves in ME were free from any direct control by Sauron.
Perhaps with Sauron controlling the 3 Elven Ring bearers he would indirectly be controlling any Elves that called the bearers their leaders.
I think that's weak though.

Some other thoughts:
Sauron gave nine Elven Rings to Men and Seven to Dwarves.
Originally all the Rings were "Elven" in that they all belonged to Elves.
If the One remained a secret what would Sauron's plan had been then?

He would have had 19 Elf Lord slaves.
I suppose that the threat by any Elf Kingdom would have ended at that point.
So maybe my thought that Sauron wanted the 3 for their particular powers is unwarranted.

So then he wipes out Hollian and takes all but 3 of the most powerful Rings.
So he has 16 Rings in his possession.
Are his personal power levels (I hate that, sounds like Dungeon and Dragons speak) increased by this? I don't think so.

Then he gave them away.
What did he gain from that?
Nine Ringwraiths.
Originally powerful Lord or Kings of Man.
Now his powerful obedient slaves with no will of their own.
He wanted to have the 7 Dwarf Kings under his command as well.
That didn't work out. lol

Yep, something in the make of the Dwarves prevented them from being completely overcome by the corrupting powers of the Rings... though it still lead them to be greedy. It's also interesting to note that according to the Dwarves, the rings were given to them by the Elves, not Sauron.

Sauron held off on making the One Ring until the end... but so were the Three Elven Rings, which is why they were made without Sauron overseeing or corrupting them...but with the same lore. I also think that the Three Elven Rings weren't used until Sauron was defeated at the end of the Second Age.

Also, we talk as if there were only 20 Magical Rings made, but is seems that a bunch of lesser rings were made as well (probably to help involve all the Elves in the shaping of Middle-Earth). These would have been controlled by the One Ring as well, but once the Elves discovered Sauron's plans, the attempted to destroy most of the lesser rings. Could be that the Nine were part of this group.

Orlion wrote:Yep, something in the make of the Dwarves prevented them from being completely overcome by the corrupting powers of the Rings... though it still lead them to be greedy. It's also interesting to note that according to the Dwarves, the rings were given to them by the Elves, not Sauron.

I think it's only Durin that got his Ring from the Elves.

Orlion wrote:Also, we talk as if there were only 20 Magical Rings made, but is seems that a bunch of lesser rings were made as well .

That's true.
Remember that Gandalf had no problem with Bilbo finding an ring that made him invisible.
It was almost like: "well sure, rings like that exist. Lucky Hobbit."

High Lord Tolkien wrote:But once the Elves knew the plan why go to war to get the Rings if they were of no personal use to Sauron?

My take is that Sauron intended to find someone else to give the Three to. Perhaps he thought that some other Elves might be corruptible, or more easily duped. Also, we know that the Three need not be weilded only by Elves; we know that Maia can weild them as well.

I don't think Sauron could weild them himself if he wore the One. That might be like crossing the beams.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Only Celebrimbor made the 3 unless I'm misremembering.

I agree. Although from time to time Tolkien can be quite monarchial, and attribute to a Lord what was actually accomplished by a Lord and all his/her vassals together.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Now the power that Sauron put into the One is an interesting concept.
He did it to enable the One to have the power to command the Three.

OR ... as I believe ... he guided the Elves in the making of the rings in such a way that he left a "back door" in them, which the One Ring would be able to use. He had the Elves leave in them a flaw, and he kept them from noticing it.

In other words, I don't think the One Ring could have worked if he didn't guide the making of the rest.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:But why?
To take command of the powers of the 3 Rings (usurp their power) AND to rule the Elves that were wearing them?

I think so, yes. Consider what Sauron did to Saruman with the palantir. Or consider what he did to the wearers of the Nine. In both cases, he did not only gain the wearers/weilders, but through them was also able to corrupt and enslave that which the wearers/weilders commanded.

I imagine he thought that he could gradually influence the wearers of the Three into serving his interests. Not overtly ("Let's all fight on Sauron's side today! ... wait, why did I say that!?") But covertly, as he did Denethor.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

wayfriend wrote:So the question HLT is asking, really, is this:

Dude.....not cool and not accurate.

Okay, pick either "oops sorry", or "of course I meant 'in my opinion', what is this the Tank?", as you wish.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:That's where I think that idea fails.
He would only be able to control the 3 who wore the Rings.
The rest of the Elves in ME were free from any direct control by Sauron.
Perhaps with Sauron controlling the 3 Elven Ring bearers he would indirectly be controlling any Elves that called the bearers their leaders.
I think that's weak though.

As I said, it worked with Sauron via the palantir. It worked with Denethor the same way. It worked, I suspect, that way with the nine. I believe that they ruled their lands for some time, more and more in the service of Sauron, before they were transformed into wraiths. If Sauron had any gift, it was that of subtle suasion. The Elves might not even know they were serving Sauron for quite a while.

As for the other idea, Sauron, like Morgoth, hated the Elves particularly. Morgoth created the Orcs because he wanted his own "Elves" who would serve him without reservation. This was after he tried to subvert the real Elves, and failed. So I think subverting the Elves was always a long-term desire of the Dark Side.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Sauron gave nine Elven Rings to Men and Seven to Dwarves.
Originally all the Rings were "Elven" in that they all belonged to Elves.

I think the Seven and the Nine were made by Elves, but were made FOR dwarves and men, and were never actually weilded by Elves.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:He wanted to have the 7 Dwarf Kings under his command as well.
That didn't work out. lol

Yes, the dwarves, interestingly enough, had the strength to defy Sauron man to man (so to speak) whereas the Elves sidestepped the issue by taking the rings off. Were the dwarves actually stronger than the Elves in this respect? I think so. The dwarves were basically too introverted to be controlled. I can see Sauron futilely trying to command a dwarf, while the dwarf continues to search his mine for gems, oblivious.

Yes, the dwarves, interestingly enough, had the strength to defy Sauron man to man (so to speak) whereas the Elves sidestepped the issue by taking the rings off. Were the dwarves actually stronger than the Elves in this respect? I think so. The dwarves were basically too introverted to be controlled. I can see Sauron futilely trying to command a dwarf, while the dwarf continues to search his mine for gems, oblivious.

Also the dwarves were created by Aule from the very materials of Arda so have some of the intrinsic resistance of gutrock; to me they were always the symbol of nature's resistance against the corruptive powers of evil.

Hey Amani. My first thought was, "haven't seen you in ages." Then I checked your posts, and saw you've been posting quite a bit (for you ) recently, just in forums I don't usually visit.

And this is the first time I've noticed you're in the UK. Anyway, nice to see you around.

What's this about the dwarves? From earlier books? All I remember is that Sauron had recovered 3 of the dwarf rings, and that the others had been consumed by dragons.

--A

Avatar wrote: What's this about the dwarves? From earlier books? All I remember is that Sauron had recovered 3 of the dwarf rings, and that the others had been consumed by dragons.

--A

As of the time of tLotR, yes, this is perfectly accurate. However, back towards the end of the Second Age, after Sauron made the One Ring andthe Elves discovered his designs, he waged war against the Elves in order to recover the rings before the Elves destroyed them. That is how he got the Nine Rings to give to Mortal Men Doomed to Die. What isn't clear is if he also managed to recover the seven and give them to the dwarves or if the Elves give them the seven before Sauron finished forging the One Ring, or a combination of the two. Balin(?) and most other dwarves believed that they were never touched by Sauron, and that is why Balin(?) went to the Mines of Moria... he wanted to recover the ring given to Durin to use against Sauron.

Some Silmarillionage for you all.

In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power.

So there were many Elves who were ring-makers.

But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.

So Sauron had a plan to ensnare the Elves when he guided their making of the Rings. But it does not say specifally whether he guided them in ways which prepared their Rings for domination by the One.

But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him ... But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them.

So Sauron never claimed the Three.

Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.

So other Elves made other Rings, but Celebrimbor made the Three.

and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.

Which, I think answers half of the original question.

Sauron wants them because of their power to prevent decay. What is not clear is if he wanted them so that the Elves could not use them to prevent decay, or if he wanted them so that he could use them to prevent decay. My belief is the former case. Because, as I mentioned above, I think decay is what Sauron wants.

But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth ... Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will.

So Sauron had from the Elves the Seven and the Nine. He it was who gave them to the Dwarves and to Men.

There is no mention (as I had thought) that the Seven and the Nine were made for Dwarves and Men respectively. It only says that Dwarves and Men ended up with them. They weren't even seperated as "the" Seven and "the" Nine until then. While the Three, all along, were special, in that they were the three best.

The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron.

So while the Dwarves were somewhat resistant to Sauron, they weren't entirely. It's not clear if Sauron kindled their greed, or if the having of Rings of Power was sufficient in and of itself to kindle it. And while they may not have been directly evil, in some cases they were so indirectly.

Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old.

Of Men, they became kings and rulers before becoming wraiths.

Thanks. Gotta read the Silmarillion again...it's been 20 years.

--A

Avatar wrote: Hey Amani. My first thought was, "haven't seen you in ages." Then I checked your posts, and saw you've been posting quite a bit (for you ) recently, just in forums I don't usually visit.

And this is the first time I've noticed you're in the UK. Anyway, nice to see you around.

What's this about the dwarves? From earlier books? All I remember is that Sauron had recovered 3 of the dwarf rings, and that the others had been consumed by dragons.

--A

Cheers, Avatar:) I've always been around more or less, but I am not a prolific poster, that I admit. Life intervenes... But Tolkien and Donaldson are always with me somehow.

Avatar wrote:Thanks. Gotta read the Silmarillion again...it's been 20 years.

--A

Check out Morgoth's Ring too if you can.
Out of all the History of Middle Earth books I found it the most interesting.

Does anyone care to speculate what "the decays of time" and "the weariness of the world" refers to?

We know that Tolkien believed that the history of Middle Earth is a fall from grace story.

"The weariness of the world" probably refers to the enui experienced by the Elves who live overlong. It is pushed back, I think, by having important and fulfilling work to do. Although all Elves must feel it to some degree.

But this is an Elvish thing. I do not believe that the Valar or the Maia experience this enui. Sauron would not.

Therefore, what would Sauron want with power over such Elvish enui? He wants it more to take it away from the Elves rather than to have it for his own - that seems like the more logical conclusion.

But what about "the decays of time".

Having read the Silmarillion a bajillion times, one thing I gather is that the Elves build to last. But everything gets ruined by Morgoth Bauglir and his friends. Either directly, like the Trees or the Fall of Gondolin. Or indirectly, like the demise of the Noldor or the turning of Men to the dark side.

That's what makes the Immortal realm immortal. Or at least part of it. The bad guys have been kicked out. And what the Elves due isn't smashed up and trounced on by Orcs or swarthy men or giant spiders.

This is why I think that Sauron, if anything, is pro decay of time. Meaning, he wants to erode what the Elves build, not preserve it.

I can't think of any passage in the Silmarillion where Morgoth or Sauron or a balrog or an Orc complains that their evil empire doesn't seem to last.

amanibhavam wrote:...but I am not a prolific poster, that I admit. Life intervenes...

Hahaha, I'll say. 1,500 posts in 8 years on the phpbb? I think I made that in 4 months. (Never did know when to shut up. )

HLT wrote:Check out Morgoth's Ring too if you can.
Out of all the History of Middle Earth books I found it the most interesting.

Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for it. The only other one I read was Unfinished Tales, and I lent that out and lost it 15 years ago. (Gods, I'm starting to age. )

--A