Obama Wants to Read Your Email and Track Your Location

Archive From The 'Tank
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19644
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Obama Wants to Read Your Email and Track Your Location

Post by Zarathustra »

Google and an alliance of privacy groups have come to Yahoo's aid by helping the Web portal fend off a broad request from the U.S. Department of Justice for e-mail messages, CNET has learned.

In a brief filed Tuesday afternoon, the coalition says a search warrant signed by a judge is necessary before the FBI or other police agencies can read the contents of Yahoo Mail messages--a position that puts those companies directly at odds with the Obama administration.

Yahoo has been quietly fighting prosecutors' requests in front of a federal judge in Colorado, with many documents filed under seal. Tuesday's brief from Google and the other groups aims to buttress Yahoo's position by saying users who store their e-mail in the cloud enjoy a reasonable expectation of privacy that is protected by the U.S. Constitution.

"Society expects and relies on the privacy of e-mail messages just as it relies on the privacy of the telephone system," the friend-of-the-court brief says. "Indeed, the largest e-mail services are popular precisely because they offer users huge amounts of computer disk space in the Internet 'cloud' within which users can warehouse their e-mails for perpetual storage."

The coalition also includes the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the Center for Democracy and Technology, the Progress and Freedom Foundation, the Computer and Communications Industry Association, and TRUSTe.

For its part, the Justice Department has taken a legalistic approach: a 17-page brief it filed last month acknowledges that federal law requires search warrants for messages in "electronic storage" that are less than 181 days old. But, Assistant U.S. Attorney Pegeen Rhyne writes in a government brief, the Yahoo Mail messages don't meet that definition.

"Previously opened e-mail is not in 'electronic storage,'" Rhyne wrote in a motion filed last month. "This court should therefore require Yahoo to comply with the order and produce the specified communications in the targeted accounts." (The Justice Department's position is that what's known as a 2703(d) order--not as privacy-protective as the rules for search warrants--should let police read e-mail.)

On December 3, 2009, U.S. Magistrate Judge Craig Shaffer ordered Yahoo to hand to prosecutors certain records including the contents of e-mail messages. Yahoo divulged some of the data but refused to turn over e-mail that had been previously viewed, accessed, or downloaded and was less than 181 days old.

A Yahoo representative declined to comment.

"This case is about protecting the privacy rights of all Internet users," a Google representative said in a statement provided to CNET on Tuesday. "E-mail stored in the cloud should have the same level of protection as the same information stored by a person at home."

That is, in fact, the broader goal of the groups filing Tuesday's brief. They're also behind the new Digital Due Process Coalition, which wants police to be able to obtain private communications (and the location of Americans' cell phones) only when armed with a search warrant.

Under a 1986 law written in the pre-Internet era, Internet users enjoy more privacy rights if they store data locally, a legal hiccup that these companies fear could slow the shift to cloud-based services unless it's changed.

The judge should "reject the government's attempted end-run around the Fourth Amendment and require it to obtain a search warrant based on probable cause before searching and seizing e-mails without prior notice to the account holder," the coalition brief filed Tuesday says. The Bill of Rights' Fourth Amendment prohibits unreasonable searches and, in general, has been interpreted to mean warrantless searches are unreasonable.

The legal push in Colorado federal court, and a parallel legislative effort in Congress to update the 1986 Electronic Communications Privacy Act, is likely to put the coalition at odds with the Obama administration.

A few weeks ago, for instance, Justice Department prosecutors told a federal appeals court that Americans enjoy no reasonable expectation of privacy in their mobile device's location and that no search warrant should be required to access location logs.

The U.S. Attorney's office in Colorado did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Update 8:15 p.m. PDT Tuesday: I've heard back from a Justice Department representative who says he'll be able to answer questions on Wednesday after he talks to the cybercrime section.

Update 9 a.m. PDT Wednesday: The Electronic Frontier Foundation has posted a statement on the case, with EFF attorney Kevin Bankston saying: "The government is trying to evade federal privacy law and the Constitution." Yahoo's brief is also worth noting. Like the coalition's filing, it argues that "users have a reasonable expectation of privacy in their e-mails" and says the Fourth Amendment requires police to obtain a warrant to peruse stored messages. And it confirms that prosecutors want "all e-mail" in the targeted Yahoo Mail accounts, even if it's not relevant to the investigation or could include documents protected by the attorney-client privilege.

Update 9:30 a.m. PDT Wednesday: Yahoo has sent over a statement saying: "Yahoo values our trusted relationships with our users and works to protect their privacy while at the same time fulfilling our legal responsibilities. Yahoo's filing in this matter is a public document. Beyond what is contained in that document, Yahoo has no comment on the specifics of the case."
news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-20002423-38.html

Did you read that first sentence? A broad request to read email messages. Not suspected terrorists. Not people for whom you could get a judge to give a warrant to violate their privacy. Broad access to random emails.

Why aren't the li-ber-als as upset about Obama's spying on Americans as they were about Bush? Obama is vastly expanding beyond anything Bush did. Bush wasn't openly arguing to be able to read our emails without a warrant.
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
User avatar
Farsailer
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 1012
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: The Public Employee Unions' Republic of California

Post by Farsailer »

crickets chirping ...
A government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take everything you have.
User avatar
SoulBiter
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 9309
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:02 am
Has thanked: 84 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Post by SoulBiter »

This is HUGE and if the administration gets its way it sets a precedence that could undermine the very fabric of our individual rights.
We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch Image
User avatar
DukkhaWaynhim
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 9195
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:35 pm
Location: Deep in thought

Re: Obama Wants to Read Your Email and Track Your Location

Post by DukkhaWaynhim »

Zarathustra wrote:
Google and an alliance of privacy groups have come to Yahoo's aid by helping the Web portal fend off a broad request from the U.S. Department of Justice for e-mail messages, CNET has learned.
Did you read that first sentence? A broad request to read email messages. Not suspected terrorists. Not people for whom you could get a judge to give a warrant to violate their privacy. Broad access to random emails.

Why aren't the li-ber-als as upset about Obama's spying on Americans as they were about Bush? Obama is vastly expanding beyond anything Bush did. Bush wasn't openly arguing to be able to read our emails without a warrant.
I read it, but unless I am mistaken, I don't think i am getting out of it what you are. What form does the 'broad request' take? Wouldn't it be in the form of a warrant? And it appears to be 'targeted', which I am assuming means they have named specific people in the broad request for email.

I don't want people reading my email, just like I don't want them reading my regular mail.

I guess I'm trying to understand the legal implication here. Are we talking about setting precedent, that if the ruling goes to the DoJ, that any 'authority' can request and expect to receive copies of anyone's electronically stored email by Google, Yahoo, etc.? That doesn't sound like something that should be allowed.

But framing it as 'Obama versus Bush' and 'why aren't the liberals gnashing their teeth over this'...? Dude, that shouldn't matter. Just sounds like government overreaching what should be their limitations to me. And that should NOT be a matter for partisan bickering. We should all be against that.

dw
"God is real, unless declared integer." - Unknown
Image
User avatar
sindatur
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 6503
Joined: Wed May 14, 2003 7:57 pm

Post by sindatur »

<Chirp, chirp>
I Never Fail To Be Astounded By The Things We Do For Promises - Ronnie James Dio (All The Fools Sailed Away)

Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them

Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain

Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?

Image
User avatar
wayfriend
.
Posts: 20957
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:34 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by wayfriend »

I for one am too lazy to look up what is really going on, having been presented with a disproportional amount of alarmist articles. I mean, do we really need to work at debunking all of them?

Chirp Chirp?!?!?!

You mean "Whah Whah!!! No one is taking my bait."

The Supreme Court is right now deciding whether or not private messages stored on work computers is really private. We can expect a 5-4 vote on that one, along party lines. We know which party is the party of there-is-no-such-thing-as-privacy-in-the-constitution.

Also, past experience has shown that the USDoJ persues every legal means available to prosecute cases. They'd be incompetent if they did any less. It's up to a judge to decide what will actually happen. It all falls under the it-doesnt-hurt-to-ask principle.

When activist judges rule that people don't have a right to privacy, should the DoJ tie its hands?

The most recklessly misrepresentative statement you could make is that this is a reflection of Obama's policy somehow.
.
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19644
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Zarathustra »

Dukkha, I commend your desire to rise above partisan point-making.

However, I think the partisan issue is perfectly relevant here. I believe Obama was elected on a wave of hatred for Bush, a wave created in part due to the furor over Bush's position on issues just like this. So he owes his Presidency to being "not-Bush," but then his administration starts doing things that are even worse than Bush?? We can't separate his hypocrisy from this issue. He is, after all, the one responsible for this policy. Raising the objection, "...but you promised us change from those kinds of policies," is just part of the overall objection.

Yes, it would be bad if any President did it. But Obama's the President now, and that's largely because he said he was against exactly these kinds of policies.

If the voters don't start rejecting Obama, they'll never change his policies. I want to change his policies. Part of my attempt in doing that is to whip up some indignation among my fellow voters. Partisan point-making serves that aim fine.
Wouldn't it be in the form of a warrant?
No, that's the whole controversy.
Last edited by Zarathustra on Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
User avatar
sindatur
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 6503
Joined: Wed May 14, 2003 7:57 pm

Post by sindatur »

Ummm...Wayfriend, Zarathustra and I are two different people, I said Chirp, Chirp, mostly being humorous, I laid no bait to be taken.
I Never Fail To Be Astounded By The Things We Do For Promises - Ronnie James Dio (All The Fools Sailed Away)

Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them

Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain

Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?

Image
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19644
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Zarathustra »

wayfriend wrote:I for one am too lazy to look up what is really going on, having been presented with a disproportional amount of alarmist articles. I mean, do we really need to work at debunking all of them?
Debunking? Are you not familiar with CNET? It's not exactly a partisan or disreputable source. I tried finding the story on a li-ber-al news source (good luck w/that), but even the Huffington Post linked back to CNET.

Do you think that Yahoo and Google are lying about their fight against the DoJ's request for our emails?
Wayfriend wrote:Also, past experience has shown that the USDoJ persues every legal means available to prosecute cases. They'd be incompetent if they did any less. It's up to a judge to decide what will actually happen. It all falls under the it-doesnt-hurt-to-ask principle.
"It's up to a judge" usually means they ask him for a warrant.

Just to be clear: you're excusing Obama's DoJ of attempting to violate our privacy without a warrant? That's your position? That this is the DoJ acting competently?
Wayfriend wrote:The most recklessly misrepresentative statement you could make is that this is a reflection of Obama's policy somehow.
It's his administration! When the DoJ did things you didn't like under Bush, you didn't set the blame squarely at his feet?
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
User avatar
wayfriend
.
Posts: 20957
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:34 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by wayfriend »

Zarathustra wrote:
wayfriend wrote:I for one am too lazy to look up what is really going on, having been presented with a disproportional amount of alarmist articles. I mean, do we really need to work at debunking all of them?
Debunking? Are you not familiar with CNET? It's not exactly a partisan or disreputable source. I tried finding the story on a li-ber-al news source (good luck w/that), but even the Huffington Post linked back to CNET.

Do you think that Yahoo and Google are lying about their fight against the DoJ's request for our emails?
Wayfriend wrote:Also, past experience has shown that the USDoJ persues every legal means available to prosecute cases. They'd be incompetent if they did any less. It's up to a judge to decide what will actually happen. It all falls under the it-doesnt-hurt-to-ask principle.
"It's up to a judge" usually means they ask him for a warrant.

Just to be clear: you're excusing Obama's DoJ of attempting to violate our privacy without a warrant? That's your position? That this is the DoJ acting competently?
Wayfriend wrote:The most recklessly misrepresentative statement you could make is that this is a reflection of Obama's policy somehow.
It's his administration! When the DoJ did things you didn't like under Bush, you didn't set the blame squarely at his feet?
FOR FUTURE REFERENCE

(And I admit this is to make it easier on my part, because it spares me the inevitable chores placed upon me)

ASSUME YOU, ZARATHUSTRA, DO NOT KNOW WHAT I MEAN, EVER EVER.

Because you have an uncanny knack of only seeming to conclude that I mean what in reality is farthest from what I really mean. I mean, random guessing would be right sometimes, but you aren't correct ever.

I think we can agree I am on the record with this.

- - - - -

I read the CNET article. I have no problem with it. I have a problem with your alarmest summarizing of the article that this reflects a position of the Obama administration as being anti-privacy. The article did not say this, you did.
Zarathustra wrote:Just to be clear: you're excusing Obama's DoJ of attempting to violate our privacy without a warrant?
No, I am not.

The DoJ is asking for something without a warrant which the law as written says that they can ask for without a warrant.

I am very pleased when the DoJ does not act out of political motivations. And that includes when it doesn't act in ways designed to change the laws.

Since the DoJ isn't doing that, I don't have any issue. Would I prefer if they couldn't access those e-mails under the law? Yes. It would be stupid and irresponsible to say that, because I don't see anything wrong with what the DoJ is doing, that my stance is anti-privacy.
It's his administration! When the DoJ did things you didn't like under Bush, you didn't set the blame squarely at his feet?
See my rule above.

I have blamed Bush for what Bush ordered the DoJ to do that was illegal.

If I misinterpret this story, and discover that what the DoJ is doing now is illegal, I will behind blasting Obama for it 100%.

But, please, don't try to be the one to convince me.
.
User avatar
Farsailer
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 1012
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:26 pm
Location: The Public Employee Unions' Republic of California

Post by Farsailer »

I'm going to quote you exactly so there can be no mistaking what you said:
Wayfriend wrote:Since the DoJ isn't doing that, I don't have any issue. Would I prefer if they couldn't access those e-mails under the law? Yes. It would be stupid and irresponsible to say that, because I don't see anything wrong with what the DoJ is doing, that my stance is anti-privacy.
In answer to the first question: you indicate that you would prefer "they couldn't access those emails under the law". But in the next sentence, you say "It would be stupid and irresponsible to say that, because I don't see anything wrong with what the DoJ is doing, that my stance is anti-privacy." Now I'm confused about what you mean... you would prefer they didn't do it, but you're OK that they're doing it because your "stance is anti-privacy".
A government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take everything you have.
User avatar
Orlion
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 6666
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
Location: Getting there...
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Orlion »

Farsailer wrote:I'm going to quote you exactly so there can be no mistaking what you said:
Wayfriend wrote:Since the DoJ isn't doing that, I don't have any issue. Would I prefer if they couldn't access those e-mails under the law? Yes. It would be stupid and irresponsible to say that, because I don't see anything wrong with what the DoJ is doing, that my stance is anti-privacy.
In answer to the first question: you indicate that you would prefer "they couldn't access those emails under the law". But in the next sentence, you say "It would be stupid and irresponsible to say that, because I don't see anything wrong with what the DoJ is doing, that my stance is anti-privacy." Now I'm confused about what you mean... you would prefer they didn't do it, but you're OK that they're doing it because your "stance is anti-privacy".
By the syntax, it would appear that it would be irresponsible and stupid for us to think wayfriend stands for anti-privacy just because he doesn't see anything wrong with what the DoJ is doing. Also, that at least in an idealized way, he'd prefer that e-mails couldn't be accessed under law. However, according to wayfriend, DoJ is not acting contrary to existing laws and are not trying to change them, so he doesn't have a problem with their actions because they are legal. Further understanding into this is shown in this quote:
wayfriend wrote:Also, past experience has shown that the USDoJ persues every legal means available to prosecute cases. They'd be incompetent if they did any less. It's up to a judge to decide what will actually happen. It all falls under the it-doesnt-hurt-to-ask principle.
Meaning, of course, that if asking for e-mails is part of the legal arsenal to pursue and convict a criminal, why not use it?
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19644
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Zarathustra »

wayfriend wrote: ASSUME YOU, ZARATHUSTRA, DO NOT KNOW WHAT I MEAN, EVER EVER.
That's why I phrased my responses to you as questions. To ask you what you meant. The usual response to questions is to answer them, if your intention is to clear up misunderstanding.

Questions are not necessarily conclusions.
wayfriend wrote:I read the CNET article. I have no problem with it. I have a problem with your alarmest summarizing of the article that this reflects a position of the Obama administration as being anti-privacy. The article did not say this, you did.
No wonder I don't understand your posts! When you said, "I for one am too lazy to look up what is really going on, having been presented with a disproportional amount of alarmist articles. I mean, do we really need to work at debunking all of them?" you actually meant my alarmist summary? (Notice the question mark. I ask for clarification of this apparant incongruity.) Calling articles "alarmist" and speaking of the need to debunk them sures gives the impression that you had a problem with the article. I'm sure that's where I got the idea.
wayfriend wrote:The DoJ is asking for something without a warrant which the law as written says that they can ask for without a warrant.
Isn't that precisely what the judge will decide? We don't know yet if they are doing something legal.
wayfriend wrote:But, please, don't try to be the one to convince me.
It's my thread. You don't have to participate. I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Are you asking me to leave my own thread, or to not respond to your posts? Some of that friendly Wayfriend clarification would be mighty appreciated.
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
User avatar
wayfriend
.
Posts: 20957
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:34 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by wayfriend »

Zarathustra wrote:
wayfriend wrote:The DoJ is asking for something without a warrant which the law as written says that they can ask for without a warrant.
Isn't that precisely what the judge will decide? We don't know yet if they are doing something legal.
As they haven't done it yet, you can't say they are even doing something which might be illegal.

But notice how the question is actually before a judge? That's what's different from the Bush administration. And that's why, despite my personal preferences, I'm not concerned about the outcome.
.
User avatar
SoulBiter
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 9309
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:02 am
Has thanked: 84 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Post by SoulBiter »

For its part, the Justice Department has taken a legalistic approach: a 17-page brief it filed last month acknowledges that federal law requires search warrants for messages in "electronic storage" that are less than 181 days old. But, Assistant U.S. Attorney Pegeen Rhyne writes in a government brief, the Yahoo Mail messages don't meet that definition.

"Previously opened e-mail is not in 'electronic storage,'" Rhyne wrote in a motion filed last month. "This court should therefore require Yahoo to comply with the order and produce the specified communications in the targeted accounts." (The Justice Department's position is that what's known as a 2703(d) order--not as privacy-protective as the rules for search warrants--should let police read e-mail.)

On December 3, 2009, U.S. Magistrate Judge Craig Shaffer ordered Yahoo to hand to prosecutors certain records including the contents of e-mail messages. Yahoo divulged some of the data but refused to turn over e-mail that had been previously viewed, accessed, or downloaded and was less than 181 days old.
Note the bold and italics... The justice dept is looking for a loophole to view emails that are less than 181 days old by saying they previously opend email are NOT in 'electronic storage' and thus dont qualify under the 181 day requirement.
We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch Image
User avatar
wayfriend
.
Posts: 20957
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:34 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by wayfriend »

Adding:
Zarathustra wrote:That's why I phrased my responses to you as questions. To ask you what you meant.
Often without waiting for an answer and proceeding to assume the answer is yes. I am aware.

I am also aware of the purpose of questions like, "So you think Obama should be able to eat children?" etc. They are slime.

And I am tired of it.

Why not tell us your opinion, and not worry so much about mine. I will tell you the parts of my opinion that I want to tell you. Feel free to disagree with whatever you might understand of them, of course.
.
User avatar
wayfriend
.
Posts: 20957
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:34 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by wayfriend »

SoulBiter wrote:Note the bold and italics... The justice dept is looking for a loophole to view emails that are less than 181 days old by saying they previously opend email are NOT in 'electronic storage' and thus dont qualify under the 181 day requirement.
Fair point.
.
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19644
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Zarathustra »

Wayfriend wrote:But notice how the question is actually before a judge? That's what's different from the Bush administration.
How is that different? Many of the issues li-ber-als didn't like about Bush went before a judge to decide. He (and his DoJ) made exactly the same argument the DoJ is making now: in our opinion, it's legal.

But legality is often tricky, often a matter of opinion (a judge's). Just because the DoJ thinks it's doing something legal doesn't mean that we can't criticize Obama. He could tell them to stop. Even if the judge decides it's legal, Obama could still have his DoJ not do it.

And despite your all-caps, vehement desire to be understood, you passed up several opportunities to foster clarity. I think I know why you didn't answer my last question, but it's interesting to note that you didn't nonetheless. Loopholes aren't just for the DoJ anymore! 8)
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
User avatar
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton
Posts: 61791
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:17 am
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Post by Avatar »

An hour later does not warrant chirps. A few days, yes, an hour, no. :lol: (Oh, no shouting.)

Anyway, this is terrible. Horrifying breach of privacy, just like the wire-tap laws. Which only goes to show there's no essential difference between politicians, and I loudly denounce the Obama administration (and their judges) for attempting this. (And I'm pretty left-leaning. :lol: )

I must say that, as much as I have the occasional issue with Google, they're usually good over stuff like this. This isn't the first time they've opposed (successfully) orders to divulge emails and search terms and stuff like that.

Well done to them and Yahoo.

--A
User avatar
wayfriend
.
Posts: 20957
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:34 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by wayfriend »

(Yahoo and Google believe that going through your personal e-mails for information is something that only they should be able to do, and if anyone else wants that information, they should pay them. They are protecting their business model, not championing a right to privacy.)
.
Locked

Return to “Coercri”