Kevin's Watch

I'm a little slow on the uptake so you'll have to forgive me.
Wasn't the original guardian Elohim? In the chapter 1 it says regarding Lord Foul : the Guardian of the One Tree was proof against him.
Now either Lord Foul was very weak at an early point in history, intimated by the fact he waited for the weakening of the Colossus and the relative freedom it gave the ravers before wooing them, or. . . AFAIK the only people who could stand against Foul successfully were people outside the land.
If Foul comes from outside the arch, then apart from whitegold wielders and the Harrow i'm not sure who could stand against Foul? Is there a direct line i.e. the haruchai beat the insequent who beat the elohim, in which case who was proof against Foul?

Sorry my brains asleep and cant figure it out myself. . .

An unbeliever . . .

Foul by being imprisoned in the world may be reduced in power.

Think of it this way.
Your in prison.
You can't go to New York City or State, or London.
Your hampered in your travels to the prison grounds and your cell.
You can look at pictures of the places but you can't touch the items, building.

If your released, then you can go to those places and see the sight.
and touch the building.

While in prison, you were reduced to a limited area.

Same principal applies to Foul. He's a being of Cosmic proportions.
But his prison is the Land and his godlike powers are contrained.
Items, powers and people in the Land hold sway over him.
He uses cunning instead of pure power to achieve his goals.
He doesn't waste himself so he can be powerful in the eyes of his servants.
He delegates others to do the footwork. He uses others as not to expend himself. We saw that with the last two Chronicles. When he uses power it devolved him and it takes time for him to regenerate back to a mode where he hold sway.

The Land is his prison and he is constrainted. It takes others from the outside to preforms the task that will allow him to escape his prison.
Once freed, he will be at the level of Creator. The constraint will be broken.

I'm not sure if the Elohim was the first guardian or not...but the guardian the Theomach defeated was Elohim...I also don't recall which particular guardian was being referred to, but it seems likely that all of them were probably able to resist him...it seems that any action LF could take against the Guardian would likely lead to waking the Worm...[not sure if I'm speculating here, or subconsciously recalling stuff we actually know...more coffee, please]...rousing the Worm would destroy the world, but that destruction is not enough to suit LF's purposes by itself, or he'd have done it before.

The important part of your question though: many many people/beings in the Land/world can "stand up" to LF in various ways at various times...if one is flexible with the definition [for example, dying uncorrupted is in a sense a "victory" over LF...you may be dead, but LF didn't get what he wanted].
And you're certainly right that LF's strength varies dramatically.
Also that a permanent answer to the problem of LF must involve things from outside the Arch.

Wasn't the original guardian an Elohim who was appointed by his people to protect the tree? The One Tree seems like the sort of thing they'd be concerned about protecting anyway, considering its connection to the Worm.

Solar wrote:Wasn't the original guardian an Elohim who was appointed by his people to protect the tree? The One Tree seems like the sort of thing they'd be concerned about protecting anyway, considering its connection to the Worm.

Therein lay his greatest feat. In single combat, he defeated the hated Elohim who stood as the Tree's Appointed Guardian...

I think we're getting a little sidetracked, I interested in WHY the Guardian was proof against Foul (Hoping here Linden gets per menantly stuck ), and WHO it was that was proof against Foul. . .

Mostly just hoping that Linden gets her Hile Troy ending she always wanted . . .

I managed to grasp the import of the rest of the chapter, it was just a point of historical accuracy I needed clarifying. But i guess more Worm is coming over the horizon very fast . . . .

Covenant the Unbeliever wrote:I think we're getting a little sidetracked, I interested in WHY the Guardian was proof against Foul (Hoping here Linden gets per menantly stuck ), and WHO it was that was proof against Foul. . .

Mostly just hoping that Linden gets her Hile Troy ending she always wanted . . .

I managed to grasp the import of the rest of the chapter, it was just a point of historical accuracy I needed clarifying. But i guess more Worm is coming over the horizon very fast . . . .

I don't see any desire on Foul's part to rouse the Worm, so why would he attempt to circumvent the Guardian? Such an act, destructive as it may be, would do nothing against the Arch. It is Kastenessan who desires to rouse the Worm, thus destroying his hated brethren the elohim and ending his anguish in one stroke.

I think it is important to note that Foul's main power lies in manipulation, otherwise, he is generally very weak (I don't know if we can trust him on this one, but allegedly in LFB, he claimed that even Drool Rockworm would be a problem to him unless he was stopped).
That being the case, he probably can not force his way to the One Tree, and as a result, would have to rely on manipulating the Guardian somehow. Now, it would seem that the Guardian is intent on it's task, so it may be beyond Foul's direct manipulation.

Orlion wrote:I think it is important to note that Foul's main power lies in manipulation, otherwise, he is generally very weak (I don't know if we can trust him on this one, but allegedly in LFB, he claimed that even Drool Rockworm would be a problem to him unless he was stopped).
That being the case, he probably can not force his way to the One Tree, and as a result, would have to rely on manipulating the Guardian somehow. Now, it would seem that the Guardian is intent on it's task, so it may be beyond Foul's direct manipulation.

That's rather convoluted. I would rather say that Foul's manipulations are designed to produce as much despair as possible in his victims, thus converting them into his unwitting servants.

So let's say that Foul does indeed desire the Worm's awakening. If so, then he must have contrived a way that it can be put back to sleep, and since it is relatively small in size, and thus cannot devour the world in one gulp, there would be plenty of time for that. Meanwhile, Linden's despair increases as the soil of her soul is being prepared for the main event: her enacting of a Ritual of Desecration so vast that Kevin's will seem impoverished by comparison.

I forgot to add, in support of this, that Foul "whispered a word of counsel here and there" - one of its recipients being Kastenessan.

Worm. Your my hero . . . . Thanks

Covenant the Unbeliever wrote:I think we're getting a little sidetracked, I interested in WHY the Guardian was proof against Foul (Hoping here Linden gets per menantly stuck ), and WHO it was that was proof against Foul. . .

Mostly just hoping that Linden gets her Hile Troy ending she always wanted . . .

I managed to grasp the import of the rest of the chapter, it was just a point of historical accuracy I needed clarifying. But i guess more Worm is coming over the horizon very fast . . . .

No one really knows yet.
SRD admitted in the GI that he screwed up.
The contradiction being that in the 2nd Chron it was said that there was no Guardian before ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol but then in the 3rd he says that there was an Elohim before that.
I imagine it will all be explained eventually.

Your question is a good one and I imagine the answer will come when we finally learn what the heck the Worm really is.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

Covenant the Unbeliever wrote:I think we're getting a little sidetracked, I interested in WHY the Guardian was proof against Foul (Hoping here Linden gets per menantly stuck ), and WHO it was that was proof against Foul. . .

Mostly just hoping that Linden gets her Hile Troy ending she always wanted . . .

I managed to grasp the import of the rest of the chapter, it was just a point of historical accuracy I needed clarifying. But i guess more Worm is coming over the horizon very fast . . . .

No one really knows yet.
SRD admitted in the GI that he screwed up.
The contradiction being that in the 2nd Chron it was said that there was no Guardian before ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol but then in the 3rd he says that there was an Elohim before that.
I imagine it will all be explained eventually.

Your question is a good one and I imagine the answer will come when we finally learn what the heck the Worm really is.

Think of the novel Dune, and then imaginatively expand one of the creatures in that novel to about the size of the entire width and breadth of the Andelainian Hills.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

Covenant the Unbeliever wrote:I think we're getting a little sidetracked, I interested in WHY the Guardian was proof against Foul (Hoping here Linden gets per menantly stuck ), and WHO it was that was proof against Foul. . .

Mostly just hoping that Linden gets her Hile Troy ending she always wanted . . .

I managed to grasp the import of the rest of the chapter, it was just a point of historical accuracy I needed clarifying. But i guess more Worm is coming over the horizon very fast . . . .

No one really knows yet.
SRD admitted in the GI that he screwed up.
The contradiction being that in the 2nd Chron it was said that there was no Guardian before ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol but then in the 3rd he says that there was an Elohim before that.
I imagine it will all be explained eventually.

Your question is a good one and I imagine the answer will come when we finally learn what the heck the Worm really is.

Think of the novel Dune, and then imaginatively expand one of the creatures in that novel to about the size of the entire width and breadth of the Andelainian Hills.

Well, that's your idea.
We'll see.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
No one really knows yet.
SRD admitted in the GI that he screwed up.
The contradiction being that in the 2nd Chron it was said that there was no Guardian before ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol but then in the 3rd he says that there was an Elohim before that.
I imagine it will all be explained eventually.

Your question is a good one and I imagine the answer will come when we finally learn what the heck the Worm really is.

Think of the novel Dune, and then imaginatively expand one of the creatures in that novel to about the size of the entire width and breadth of the Andelainian Hills.

Well, that's your idea.
We'll see.

All right then, I should have told the truth about my feelings in the first place. The real Worm is pink, cute, and wears a tiny red cowboy hat.

Another side of the Guardian's protection is that you actually need to get someone else to beat him for you. Anyone who defeats the Guardian, it seems, automatically becomes merged with him. I don't imagine Lord Foul would want to do that to himself, hence his requirement for pawns...

Orlion wrote:I think it is important to note that Foul's main power lies in manipulation, otherwise, he is generally very weak (I don't know if we can trust him on this one, but allegedly in LFB, he claimed that even Drool Rockworm would be a problem to him unless he was stopped).
That being the case, he probably can not force his way to the One Tree, and as a result, would have to rely on manipulating the Guardian somehow. Now, it would seem that the Guardian is intent on it's task, so it may be beyond Foul's direct manipulation.

It was High Lord Elena that said that Lord Foul was "...at Drool's mercy as long as the Cavewight lived." However, she could have been wrong? The Lords didn't seem to know a whole lot about LF.

Once he got the Illearth Stone, LF claimed that he could blast the moon in its course, enact desecration, dogs and cats, living together, etc. Therefore, LF apparently was weak without a bane.

WGW stated that the Ravers knew of other banes and powers hidden under Mount Thunder, if LF was weak without a bane, why not just go get another one to make him strong again?

if LF was weak without a bane, why not just go get another one to make him strong again?

My sense of this is that Lord Foul is in essence a spiritual being and can only become corporeal and capable of direct action when he can tap into human (or other beings)' own Despite. On his own he's impotent. So he needed Drool plus the Stone to resume bodily form in the 1st Chrons, while in the 2nd he was able to tap into the Earthpower itself (as Donaldson explains in "Soothtell"), corrupting it as he grows strong-- the Earth qualifying here as a "being" and the Sunbane as its corruption/despite. This was possible because the destruction of the Staff weakened the Law that limited Foul. Note that at the end of the other two trilogies Lord Foul dematerializes after laughter diminishes him, and after he expends all his power trying to destroy TC and the Arch. Now that the Laws of Life and Death are both broken it's interesting to speculate how Lord Foul has clawed his way back to active life (though we still don't know for sure that he's walking around in the flesh). My guess is that he's been reaching across worlds and feeding like a psychic vampire on Joan, Roger and maybe Jeremiah.

Interesting things going on here.
But I think it's a mistake to consider LF "weak" in any except the most ho-hum ways. Nothing native to the world of the Land that we've seen can permanently reduce or harm him. When he says Drool can cause him trouble, he only means an extra millenia or 2 of extra plotting...which of course irritates an immortal creature such as himself, because ruling over and laying waste to the world is just his version of knitting, something to do to pass the time [or would be if he wanted to stay there...but he doesn't].

And Solar...that was a very interesting observation...for a number of reasons, it increased both my respect for and concern about the Insequent. [SRD says you're wrong about the "merging" thing, but that's a quibble...I'm having fun pondering LF as Guardian, yet trying to break the Arch.]

MrKABC wrote:

Orlion wrote:I think it is important to note that Foul's main power lies in manipulation, otherwise, he is generally very weak (I don't know if we can trust him on this one, but allegedly in LFB, he claimed that even Drool Rockworm would be a problem to him unless he was stopped).
That being the case, he probably can not force his way to the One Tree, and as a result, would have to rely on manipulating the Guardian somehow. Now, it would seem that the Guardian is intent on it's task, so it may be beyond Foul's direct manipulation.

It was High Lord Elena that said that Lord Foul was "...at Drool's mercy as long as the Cavewight lived." However, she could have been wrong? The Lords didn't seem to know a whole lot about LF.

That's probably true, that's why Foul would have to use some other method such as his usual false promises.