Kevin's Watch

The ur-Vile's are beings of self-loathing who have followed Lord Foul in the past. But they were only his minions as their Weird allows, or rather, as they interpret their Weird. But eventually the ur-Vile's saw, through their Weird, that Lord Foul did not have the ultimate solution to their self-loathing.

If it were within the Weird to destroy themselves the ur-Viles would have done so long ago. But this is not possible to them. So they have chosen a new leader. As with the Elohim, perhaps they were wrong at one time about the identity of the shadow on the heart of the Earth, although I don't suppose they saw it as a shadow. But however they viewed it, their interpretation of it as a solution to their self-loathing was correct. Only they misidentified its source. It's true identity, they found, belongs with people from the "real" world such as Covenant and Linden Avery. Therefore the ur-Viles created Vain, whose purpose was the creation of a new Staff of Law which would mitigate Covenant's ability to defend the Arch.

Beings of self-loathing can only desire self-destruction as a species. However, unable to destroy themselves, they follow those whose path can only lead to utter ruin, those mortal beings from the "real" world.

I took this topic in a new direction so thought it deserved a new thread. Agreed? There are just two sides to this entire issue in the Chrons: those who desire the Earth's destruction, and those who desire to prevent it. The deck is stacked heavily against those who desire to prevent it, and anyway Linden still unwittingly serves the Despiser through her every word and deed. Characters such as Roger, and her son who has evidently partnered with the croyel, have had years, if not decades - and on their own playing field - to pave the way for Linden to carry out her unintended purpose.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Beings of self-loathing can only desire self-destruction as a species.

I don't agree with that.

Certainly the ur-viles could have self-destroyed at any time, but did not. It seems that Lord Foul promised them some sort of answer, and so they followed him. Perhaps he promised them the lore to remake themselves.

The Waynhim were equally self-loathing. But chose to ameliorate their loathing rather than indulge it, through service.

But they both had some sort of answer that was not self-destruction.

In fact, when the ur-viles realized that Lord Foul was after the destruction of the Earth, they did not rejoice in it, but instead they abandoned their service to him and their alliances with him.

So I am not seeing it the way you do.

I see the ur-viles following the coarse of the Waynhim. Choosing service to the Land as a remedy to self-loathing.

I think divergent views of the ur-viles stem from whether or not one believes that they have changed to the good, or only appear to have changed for the good. Did they really help create a new Staff of Law, or did they plant a sinister timebomb in the Land's Best Tool?

So far, I haven't seen any evidence of their malign intentions, so I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think the "Shadow on the Heart of the Earth" issue pertains to the ur-viles. They are not the Wurd.

wayfriend wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Beings of self-loathing can only desire self-destruction as a species.

I don't agree with that.

Certainly the ur-viles could have self-destroyed at any time, but did not. It seems that Lord Foul promised them some sort of answer, and so they followed him. Perhaps he promised them the lore to remake themselves.

The Waynhim were equally self-loathing. But chose to ameliorate their loathing rather than indulge it, through service.

But they both had some sort of answer that was not self-destruction.

In fact, when the ur-viles realized that Lord Foul was after the destruction of the Earth, they did not rejoice in it, but instead they abandoned their service to him and their alliances with him.

So I am not seeing it the way you do.

I see the ur-viles following the coarse of the Waynhim. Choosing service to the Land as a remedy to self-loathing.

I think divergent views of the ur-viles stem from whether or not one believes that they have changed to the good, or only appear to have changed for the good. Did they really help create a new Staff of Law, or did they plant a sinister timebomb in the Land's Best Tool?

So far, I haven't seen any evidence of their malign intentions, so I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think the "Shadow on the Heart of the Earth" issue pertains to the ur-viles. They are not the Wurd.

Let's give SRD the benefit of being deviously ingenious here. The ur-Viles have not changed for the good, they have only changed their tactics. Having no ability to destroy themselves at any time, they choose the path of least resistance. At one time this path involved Foul, but he is not the true shadow. Those who come from the "real" world are the shadow. Infelice is right about the this.

I love your time-bomb idea. So far, however, its only wider purpose, as revealed by Infelice, has been to weaken the puissance of the Timewarden. So there has been no time-bomb effect, if we're supposed to take that literally. It's effect is more subtle than that. And you never answered the question of why the Waynhim kept it locked behind a Word of Warning. Knowing its true purpose, and as servants of Earthpower, obviously they feared its power.

I think you have the wrong idea of "Wurd." The Elohim are the Wurd of the Earth. However, individual species have their own Wurd, that is to say, their own Path, fate, or perhaps Tao. So you're right, the ur-Viles are not the Wurd, that which is embodied by the Elohim. But they do interpret and follow their own Wurd, Weird, or Word, which seems to be some kind of implicit doctrine at the very basis of their being. It is who they are as a species.

I think you're forgetting an important point in the Chrons. The ur-Viles abandoned Foul when they saw him as a failure at total destruction, they did not abandon him as a destroyer per se. They had abandoned that path before the beginning of the Second Chrons., preparing Vain for the next coming of the Ringbearer. I see no reason in the text for the ur-Viles to have had a change of heart. There is apparent textual evidence that, being on the side of the SunSage that they are on the good side. However, every word and deed of the Chosen has served only Despite. Infelice - who I take to be correct - identified Linden as the original problem for primarily one reason: she was not the Ringbearer in the 2nd Chrons. And if she was, her power over the ring would have been limited due to the fact that she is not the ring's true owner. She could still have the power to battle Foul, casting him down forever - a battle which probably would have wreaked wide havoc over the Earth. But at least the Earth would have been saved, the Arch would forever be preserved, and the Elohim could then heal the damage to the Earth. The path she chose, instead, to heal the Sunbane, and with Foul only diminished once again but sure to regain his strength, was exactly what the ur-Viles desired, and why they barked in vindication at the creation of the new Staff. They had vindicated themselves, their Word, and their path which had at this point theoretically reached its culmination.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I think you're forgetting an important point in the Chrons. The ur-Viles abandoned Foul when they saw him as a failure at total destruction, they did not abandon him as a destroyer per se.

I didn't "forget" that ... I never even saw that in the text.

You're ideas are at least somewhat consistent, but you have to believe a whole new interpretation of every aspect of the story in order make it work. Things that mostly I don't believe. Like that the Dead were duped into believing the ur-viles, which is why Foamfollower gave Vain to Covenant. That Linden serves Lord Foul. That she should not have created a new Staff. etc.

Donaldson tells our brains to distrust Linden but he tells our hearts to trust her completely.

This may be long if I cover everything, but:
The entire arc of self-loathing is a direct result of the teachings/corruptions of LF. It all started when he altered the Viles nature/perception, and continued unbroken till the creation of Vain...but that wasn't the end, now there are the Manacles.
This story of the ur-viles won't lead to shouts of victory cuz they're dead and so is everyone else, thus fulfilling their self-loathing...they may well die, may fail, but they intend, and will have a hand in, opposing LF at the end...and not because he "failed at destruction."
"Suicide is too easy."
They've found a meaning in their wurd that transcends their self-loathing, if they die it will be self-sacrifice for a greater benefit, not the natural end of despair. [though there is almost certainly some self-interest in their motivations, and their definition of greater benefit may not precisely match the wishes of the Elohim...they're going to have to sacrifice, too.]
And to say Linden is LF's servant is going to far. Like TC before, she is in crisis, and a large part of the pressures in that crisis are directly the fault of those who insist on blaming her. In no way was it ever Linden's fault that she was not the Sun-Sage the Elohim thought they saw, and I find it highly unlikely that a better result would have been achieved if Linden had chosen to act in a way that she herself considered evil...to become the Sun-Sage would have required, at minimum, a self-corruption...LF wins again.
And I don't think the new Staff is a bomb, but I think it is more potent and of a different [actually additional] purpose than the old.

Oh, and the staff was hidden by the Waynhim to prevent those who had no right to it from claiming it.

wayfriend wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I think you're forgetting an important point in the Chrons. The ur-Viles abandoned Foul when they saw him as a failure at total destruction, they did not abandon him as a destroyer per se.

I didn't "forget" that ... I never even saw that in the text.

You're ideas are at least somewhat consistent, but you have to believe a whole new interpretation of every aspect of the story in order make it work. Things that mostly I don't believe. Like that the Dead were duped into believing the ur-viles, which is why Foamfollower gave Vain to Covenant. That Linden serves Lord Foul. That she should not have created a new Staff. etc.

Donaldson tells our brains to distrust Linden but he tells our hearts to trust her completely.

I don't believe some of that stuff you're attributing to me. 1. I don't believe Linden purposefully serves Foul. She is entirely self-serving, and in this she indirectly serves Foul. 2. I don't know that the ur-Viles duped anybody, dead or alive, and I never stated this. 3. Of course I believed at the end of the 2nd Chrons that creating a new Staff was the best thing. But now it seems that the thing is causing nothing but trouble. One clue to this is the impaling of Linden's hand to the Staff, binding her hand to the Staff at least has symbolic importance: Linden's emotional and physical attachment to power in any form is something the evil side desires. Why is that? And Infelice has indicated that the creation of the new Staff is the source of Covenant's weakness in his defense of the Arch.

I did agree with one part of your first post when you pointed out that self-loathing doesn't have to lead to self-destruction. Ok, you got me there. But that point doesn't affect the rest, it simply points to the nature of the ur-Vile Word in that they must seek self-destruction. If you want textual support for this I'll look into it, and if you like you can seek support for the opposing view, that the ur-Viles have reinterpreted their Word in such a way that they now seek the Earth's preservation.

As for your last statement about trust, I would say that Donaldson teaches us to distrust the Elohim through characters such as Linden and Covenant who should not be trusted. And yes they can be considered shadows or blights upon the Earth no matter how benevolent their intentions, at least in the 2nd Chrons.

I mean, come on, the Elohim desire the preservation of the Earth because they desire their own continuance. Someone here pointed to all their mistakes, but the only mistake I've read about is their misinterpretation of the shadow as being Lord Foul. But that was millennia ago in the Land. Now the rousing of the Worm is a fact - the cause, Linden Avery the Chosen.

And to top it all off,

Spoiler

her attempt to bring TC back from the Dead seems to have been aborted by her incapacity with the ways of magic.

However, all that being said, it is not necessarily the case that serving the Despiser, as Linden does unwittingly, will lead to utter destruction. The Elohim, who have little faith in beings outside of themselves, may just be wrong in that.

I wish I could remember, or had a copy at hand, of the part of, I think it's Fatal Revenant, where Linden temporarily has the power, if she wants to use it, to read the ur-viles' minds or something.

And it kinda seems lame that the ur-viles would in the end still want to destroy the world, only through their own scheming (to guarantee such destruction anyway). I'm not saying that you're wrong, maybe Donaldson is gonna let us down by having that turn out to be the Demondim-spawn's deeper intent... although where do the manacles come in? ... And besides, wouldn't allowing the Despiser to win in some major way at the climax of the Second Chronicles be *so much easier* a route to their annihilation than the Lost-like maze they're allegedly leading Linden through now? Foul almost completed a genocide against the weird guys around then, also—but it was something Vain felt anger towards.

Donaldson, I trust, is a much more inventive storyteller than the above would make him. So I'm sticking with the ur-viles either altering the laws of nature to make themselves no longer violations of Law, thereby redeeming them completely, or using the Staff's transworld gating power to go to some alternative universe where the Law is ALREADY in harmony with their essence. I mean, it almost seems like the Viles originally might've gated in to the Land from some parallel reality as it is. Do you really believe that our Earth and the Land's Earth are the only Earths in the entire Donaldsonian multiverse?

Vraith wrote:This may be long if I cover everything, but:
The entire arc of self-loathing is a direct result of the teachings/corruptions of LF. It all started when he altered the Viles nature/perception, and continued unbroken till the creation of Vain...but that wasn't the end, now there are the Manacles.
This story of the ur-viles won't lead to shouts of victory cuz they're dead and so is everyone else, thus fulfilling their self-loathing...they may well die, may fail, but they intend, and will have a hand in, opposing LF at the end...and not because he "failed at destruction."
"Suicide is too easy."
They've found a meaning in their wurd that transcends their self-loathing, if they die it will be self-sacrifice for a greater benefit, not the natural end of despair. [though there is almost certainly some self-interest in their motivations, and their definition of greater benefit may not precisely match the wishes of the Elohim...they're going to have to sacrifice, too.]
And to say Linden is LF's servant is going to far.

Linden is not Foul's servant directly - one could say, for example, that her chronically inept use of power serves Foul - indirectly. Or that her bad judgment serves Foul - indirectly. Or that her neurotic, self-serving nature serves Foul - indirectly. Or that her attempts to overcompensate for a traumatic childhood past serves Foul - indirectly.

Most likely, to my mind, at the end of the story the Land's Earth will be euthanized by Linden as she euthanized her own mother, and for similar reasons - to end the suffering. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy necessitated by her bad karma.

Like TC before, she is in crisis, and a large part of the pressures in that crisis are directly the fault of those who insist on blaming her. In no way was it ever Linden's fault that she was not the Sun-Sage the Elohim thought they saw, and I find it highly unlikely that a better result would have been achieved if Linden had chosen to act in a way that she herself considered evil...to become the Sun-Sage would have required, at minimum, a self-corruption...LF wins again.
And I don't think the new Staff is a bomb, but I think it is more potent and of a different [actually additional] purpose than the old.

I don't think WF actually meant to imply it was a bomb, even jokingly.

Oh, and the staff was hidden by the Waynhim to prevent those who had no right to it from claiming it.

Certainly - but what happened when someone - the Sun-Sage herself - with the right to claim it finally came along?

Mighara Sovmadhi wrote:I wish I could remember, or had a copy at hand, of the part of, I think it's Fatal Revenant, where Linden temporarily has the power, if she wants to use it, to read the ur-viles' minds or something.

I'd have to look it up.

And it kinda seems lame that the ur-viles would in the end still want to destroy the world, only through their own scheming (to guarantee such destruction anyway). I'm not saying that you're wrong, maybe Donaldson is gonna let us down by having that turn out to be the Demondim-spawn's deeper intent... although where do the manacles come in? ... And besides, wouldn't allowing the Despiser to win in some major way at the climax of the Second Chronicles be *so much easier* a route to their annihilation than the Lost-like maze they're allegedly leading Linden through now? Foul almost completed a genocide against the weird guys around then, also—but it was something Vain felt anger towards.

And what do the manacles do? What is their use? I wouldn't go so far as to say they have a Purpose, they are not like Vain.

Donaldson, I trust, is a much more inventive storyteller than the above would make him. So I'm sticking with the ur-viles either altering the laws of nature to make themselves no longer violations of Law, thereby redeeming them completely, or using the Staff's transworld gating power to go to some alternative universe where the Law is ALREADY in harmony with their essence. I mean, it almost seems like the Viles originally might've gated in to the Land from some parallel reality as it is. Do you really believe that our Earth and the Land's Earth are the only Earths in the entire Donaldsonian multiverse?

Yes. Even in the entire Gap universe, with its faster-than-light gap drive ability, there were, what, four planets or planetoids?

Of course I believe Donaldson is amazingly creative and inventive in his writing. Your own ideas there are inventive, however, they are inventive in an arbitrary way. For one thing, we have been given utterly no notion of other Earth's or worlds in the Chrons.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Yes. Even in the entire Gap universe, with its faster-than-light gap drive ability, there were, what, four planets or planetoids?

Haven't read em yet.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Of course I believe Donaldson is amazingly creative and inventive in his writing. Your own ideas there are inventive, however, they are inventive in an arbitrary way. For one thing, we have been given utterly no notion of other Earth's or worlds in the Chrons.

Well, maybe worlds besides the two we know is too much conjecture, but we know that Laws can be broken and repaired—how much of a leap is it from those to rewritten?

Mighara Sovmadhi wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Yes. Even in the entire Gap universe, with its faster-than-light gap drive ability, there were, what, four planets or planetoids?

Haven't read em yet.

You must!

Mighara Sovmadhi wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Of course I believe Donaldson is amazingly creative and inventive in his writing. Your own ideas there are inventive, however, they are inventive in an arbitrary way. For one thing, we have been given utterly no notion of other Earth's or worlds in the Chrons.

Well, maybe worlds besides the two we know is too much conjecture, but we know that Laws can be broken and repaired—how much of a leap is it from those to rewritten?

Have there been any Laws repaired? No. And rewritten Laws would require a new Arch. I wouldn't put that much past Donaldson, if there was one Creator of worlds there can be another Creator and another world - after the present one succumbs.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Have there been any Laws repaired? No. And rewritten Laws would require a new Arch.

I got the impression from the end of White Gold Wielder that Linden was repairing the natural order of the Land, not just purifying the Earthpower (unless the two are the same thing) when the text is on something about remembering climatology or whatever.

Mighara Sovmadhi wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Have there been any Laws repaired? No. And rewritten Laws would require a new Arch.

I got the impression from the end of White Gold Wielder that Linden was repairing the natural order of the Land, not just purifying the Earthpower (unless the two are the same thing) when the text is on something about remembering climatology or whatever.

If you want to call it "repairing the Law." But I'm still waiting for Sheriff Lytton to appear in the Land with his white gold belt buckle. Maybe in the next book?

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: If you want to call it "repairing the Law." But I'm still waiting for Sheriff Lytton to appear in the Land with his white gold belt buckle. Maybe in the next book?

HAH! Thanks for my first chuckle of the day.

I don't disagree that, in her current [and difficult] position, Linden's choices could serve LF despite her intentions, but all blame does not lie with her...though all responsibility for action seems too.
The "euthanizing the Land" like her mother...interesting, and probably part of LF's hopes for Linden. It may also be the only way to keep LF from winning completely, to save anything.

And I didn't really think WF meant a bomb either, just going with the flow and saying I don't think anything nefarious is hidden in the new staff.

The manacles, like Jeremiah's spaces, are part and parcel of whatever comes to replace the AoT. Cages, restrictions, limiters to prevent the next world from falling like this one seems doomed too.

Vraith wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: If you want to call it "repairing the Law." But I'm still waiting for Sheriff Lytton to appear in the Land with his white gold belt buckle. Maybe in the next book?

HAH! Thanks for my first chuckle of the day.

I don't disagree that, in her current [and difficult] position, Linden's choices could serve LF despite her intentions, but all blame does not lie with her...though all responsibility for action seems too.
The "euthanizing the Land" like her mother...interesting, and probably part of LF's hopes for Linden. It may also be the only way to keep LF from winning completely, to save anything.

As I said, Linden's intentions are primarily self-serving - to follow her mommy's instincts and act for the preservation of her child who has already betrayed her, who is beyond salvation because he was corrupted by Foul years ago, at or before the hand-burning incident at the bonfire in the "real" world. "Beware the Halfhand." "Be cautious of love. It misleads.
There is a glamour upon which binds the heart to destruction." This must also includes the mother's love for her son.

Linden is following an instinct rationalized by a false hope. Her son, who is only her adopted son anyway, is already lost, seduced by the beauty of the Land and, as he said, by the fact that the people there and even beings such as Ravers who may desire his death pay attention to him in the Land. But even life with Ravers is superior to the life he had back in the "real" world with his adoptive mother Linden Avery.

And I didn't really think WF meant a bomb either, just going with the flow and saying I don't think anything nefarious is hidden in the new staff.

No, just the fact that it weakens the Timewarden's ability to ward Time against the caesures. So Linden Avery is indirectly responsible for the harm to Time created by caesures almost as if she were Joan and Foul's willing servant. The "cracks" in the Arch which resulted made it possible for the ability to travel through time and the retrieval of the Staff from the Waynhim, thus rendering possible the events at the end of FR.

It is hope that carries Linden forward, hope symbolized by Jeremiah's crushed racecar, dropped by him (no doubt on purpose) at EarthRoot, and retrieved by Linden to be carried around in her pocket as a token of faith.

The manacles, like Jeremiah's spaces, are part and parcel of whatever comes to replace the AoT. Cages, restrictions, limiters to prevent the next world from falling like this one seems doomed too.

By and large, you could be correct, although that seems to be mere speculation.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:No, just the fact that it weakens the Timewarden's ability to ward Time against the caesures. So Linden Avery is indirectly responsible for the harm to Time created by caesures almost as if she were Joan and Foul's willing servant.

Well, lets be fair. The Staff interferes with the Time Warden because it strengthens the Law. You make it sound as if that was all to the bad and none to the good. But all it really means is that a new way needs to be found to fight the caesures. Because a world where the caesures are managed by the Timewarden but the Law is weak isn't too good of an answer.

The Elohim are perfectly happy with the Timewarden doing the work because it spares them the need to get involved, and they don't see any value in Law - the only see Law as a hindrance to their efforts. This arises from the fact that Law governs the uses of Earthpower, and the Elohim are Earthpower, and they don't want to be governed. This is not a view we should share, IMO.

Vraith wrote:And I didn't really think WF meant a bomb either, just going with the flow and saying I don't think anything nefarious is hidden in the new staff.

Yes, by "bomb" I meant some sort of latently revealed evil surprise.

Mighara Sovmadhi wrote:I got the impression from the end of White Gold Wielder that Linden was repairing the natural order of the Land, not just purifying the Earthpower (unless the two are the same thing) when the text is on something about remembering climatology or whatever.

Indeed, she did. She undid the corruption of Lord Foul that was the Sunbane.

But she didn't restore the Law whose damage allowed it to happen. The destruction of the old Staff weakened the Law, and creating a new Staff would eventually allow the Law to be strengthened again - but that only comes with time and use and she could not do that much. And of course she could not fix the broken Laws of Death or of Life.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Linden is not Foul's servant directly - one could say, for example, that her chronically inept use of power serves Foul - indirectly. Or that her bad judgment serves Foul - indirectly. Or that her neurotic, self-serving nature serves Foul - indirectly. Or that her attempts to overcompensate for a traumatic childhood past serves Foul - indirectly.

Linden-bashing isn't really logic. Linden doesn't deserve any of those changes, for one thing.

But among the things that one could say, one could say that Linden is prepared to enter Foul's traps in order to comprehend them and thus defeat them, such as Dead Mhoram told Covenant to do. Or that Linden will fight for what she believes in, succeed or fail, such as Live Mhoram told his fellow Lords when all looked doomed.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Most likely, to my mind, at the end of the story the Land's Earth will be euthanized by Linden as she euthanized her own mother, and for similar reasons - to end the suffering. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy necessitated by her bad karma.

Really? Or is this just Linden bashing.

If you really believe that this is the ending Donaldson has planned, then why bother? You credit Donaldson for genius on the one hand, and then credit him with this travesty on the other.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I don't believe some of that stuff you're attributing to me. 1. I don't believe Linden purposefully serves Foul. She is entirely self-serving, and in this she indirectly serves Foul. 2. I don't know that the ur-Viles duped anybody, dead or alive, and I never stated this.

You did not state them, but they do follow from your statements. For example, if the ur-viles had an evil intent in Vain, but Dead Foamfollower agreed to present Vain to Covenant, then either the Dead did not see the evil intent, or they shared the evil intent.

wayfriend wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:No, just the fact that it weakens the Timewarden's ability to ward Time against the caesures. So Linden Avery is indirectly responsible for the harm to Time created by caesures almost as if she were Joan and Foul's willing servant.

Well, lets be fair. The Staff interferes with the Time Warden because it strengthens the Law. You make it sound as if that was all to the bad and none to the good. But all it really means is that a new way needs to be found to fight the caesures. Because a world where the caesures are managed by the Timewarden but the Law is weak isn't too good of an answer.

The Timewarden cannot prevent or manage the caesures, but as far as I can ascertain he can, outside of the hindrance of the Staff's existence, passively obviate damage to the Arch. It does, however, seem a painful truth to realize that Covenant would literally have to keep this up forever, and ever, and ever, like Atlas straining beneath the weight of the entire earth...

With that knowledge in hand, I can't think of anything better than to relieve the Timewarden's burden. If only, as you suggest, such were possible while at the same time eliminating the caesures which attack the Arch relentlessly.

wayfriend wrote:The Elohim are perfectly happy with the Timewarden doing the work because it spares them the need to get involved, and they don't see any value in Law - the only see Law as a hindrance to their efforts. This arises from the fact that Law governs the uses of Earthpower, and the Elohim are Earthpower, and they don't want to be governed. This is not a view we should share, IMO.

The Elohim only value self-contemplation so of course they don't want to get involved in mere external matters. And of course they don't care if Covenant has to spend all eternity struggling to defend the Arch, as long as they are left happy and content with their navel-gazing.

wayfriend wrote:

Vraith wrote:And I didn't really think WF meant a bomb either, just going with the flow and saying I don't think anything nefarious is hidden in the new staff.

Yes, by "bomb" I meant some sort of latently revealed evil surprise.

That is only a surprise if one believes Infelice's statement that the Staff's very existence limits the Timewarden.

wayfriend wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Linden is not Foul's servant directly - one could say, for example, that her chronically inept use of power serves Foul - indirectly. Or that her bad judgment serves Foul - indirectly. Or that her neurotic, self-serving nature serves Foul - indirectly. Or that her attempts to overcompensate for a traumatic childhood past serves Foul - indirectly.

Linden-bashing isn't really logic. Linden doesn't deserve any of those changes, for one thing.

So-called Linden-bashing does however serve to get my point across well. :0)

wayfriend wrote:But among the things that one could say, one could say that Linden is prepared to enter Foul's traps in order to comprehend them and thus defeat them, such as Dead Mhoram told Covenant to do. Or that Linden will fight for what she believes in, succeed or fail, such as Live Mhoram told his fellow Lords when all looked doomed.

If Linden is prepared to enter Foul's traps, then she will be ensnared through her bad judgment in doing so. You wish me to give her credit for courage - fine, she gets the credit she deserves. You may even wish me to grant her leniency for being a good mommy - great, I fully grant it. But none of this will save the Earth, that's all I'm saying.

wayfriend wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Most likely, to my mind, at the end of the story the Land's Earth will be euthanized by Linden as she euthanized her own mother, and for similar reasons - to end the suffering. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy necessitated by her bad karma.

Really? Or is this just Linden bashing.

I'm no potential member of THOOLAH. For example, the picture on the THOOLAH blog of Linden "crying into her hands" is deeply amusing, but I know she wasn't actually crying into her hands in the book itself, it is only a bad drawing of an event in WGW.

My "Linden-bashing" rests on the facts as Donaldson relates them in the Chrons. Linden's judgment is bad. Linden's use of power is faulty. Linden's capacity for well-intended destruction - inestimable.

I assure you, I am using logic to the best of my mortal ability here. The story-line and motives of the various characters however are highly convoluted, making such edifice-building as my own here easier for critics deft in the ways of reasoning to knock down.

wayfriend wrote:If you really believe that this is the ending Donaldson has planned, then why bother? You credit Donaldson for genius on the one hand, and then credit him with this travesty on the other.

That made me lol. Actually, Donaldson hath written in the GI, in the context of the Chrons stories, that life and death necessitate each other, iow, that death is a necessary part of life.

Therefore, in my opinion, the Land at the very least will die, beginning with Andelain. But Linden will not have a direct hand in that, the skurj will take out Andelain before Linden's very eyes. She will be forced to stand by helplessly and witness everything - taking the blame all on herself - just as she did with her father's suicide while locked in the attic with him.

Consider one important rule of the Chrons: anything that happens in the "real" world could very well be, and probably will be, a foreshadowing of events to occur in the Land. (We should also know, from reading the GI, that Donaldson strives for symmetry in his writing: "...I consider his death to be the logical and necessary consequence of the choices he made in life. It also happens to be beautifully symmetrical, which pleases me.") And that the "real" world is, in a sense, only a shadow of the Land's earth. For example, the bonfire of the cultists has its reference in the Banefire, the cultists sacrificing their hands to the fire has its reference in feeding blood to the Banefire. And I say, the burning down of Covenant's farmhouse will have its reference to the destruction by skurj of Andelain at the very least.

If Linden euthanizes the Earth it will be a choice forced by the extremity of her and the Earth's plight. As severe as this seems, I would not expect anything less out of an author as worthy as Donaldson. But I would also expect much more positivity than that, since, after all, death necessitates new life.

wayfriend wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I don't believe some of that stuff you're attributing to me. 1. I don't believe Linden purposefully serves Foul. She is entirely self-serving, and in this she indirectly serves Foul. 2. I don't know that the ur-Viles duped anybody, dead or alive, and I never stated this.

You did not state them, but they do follow from your statements. For example, if the ur-viles had an evil intent in Vain, but Dead Foamfollower agreed to present Vain to Covenant, then either the Dead did not see the evil intent, or they shared the evil intent.

I don't know what Foamfollower's intent was. Perhaps it is sheer hell being a shade, and so the Dead too want it all to end. Who knows? I have no textual support one way or the other.

I can only say at the moment that using Foamfollower in this role was a brilliant plot device. If the reader can trust a being as congenial and beneficent as the Giant Foamfollower, then we are led to trust Vain's purpose, and thus the purposes of the ur-Viles that created Vain. Then we may also, as with you, be led into believing that the ur-Viles have reinterpreted their Weird in terms similar to that of the Waynhim. And we are, in a similar vein, led to distrust the elohim for distrusting and then imprisoning Vain. And in this latter we were positively misled by Donaldson, who created beings completely unlikeable (therefore unbelievable?) only to reveal that, in the long run, they knew what they were talking about all along.

You have however stated one interesting assumption - that I believe the ur-Viles were attempting to do evil through Vain. But I believe, along with Donaldson, that no volitional being believes it to be doing evil. It is striving to follow the good in its own way, and from their own limited perspective, the ur-Viles are only striving to fulfill their Weird.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: Beings of self-loathing can only desire self-destruction as a species. However, unable to destroy themselves, they follow those whose path can only lead to utter ruin, those mortal beings from the "real" world.

From the GI:

Ben Chambers wrote: Ben Chambers: I've been pondering lately on the Ur-Viles, how they serve Linden in the Final Chronicles, and how they "turned against" the Despiser by creating Vain. But on my most recent reading of the Second Chronicles, I can't seem to find anything that explicitly states they turned against Foul. The text only says that Foul exposed them to the Sunbane, and we assume it's for creating Vain.

Mainly, I'm wondering how they could have so drastically reinturpreted their Wierd. Or, to put it another way, if their Wierd now requires them to serve Linden, how could they have so drastically misinterpreted it before, that they would serve Lord Foul?

Along with this, and probably in firm spoiler territory (terra firma spoila?), is whether or not we should trust their current intentions. Perhaps they still serve Foul's aims, and seek to accomplish them through assisting Linden to achieve the ruin of the world?

And wrapped up in the middle of all this is Vain. The Elohim seem diametrically opposed to Vain. In a recent answer in the GI, you even stated that Vain wasn't a creation of Law, but was outside Law, just as the lore of the Ur-Viles (his creators) was outside Law. But you also said that his transformation was, in part, effected by his experience at the One Tree. So, my logical query after that is, What would Vain's transformation have been like, if he hadn't been "wounded" at the One Tree? How would the final Staff have been different, and was that more in line with what the Ur-Viles wanted at the time? Would we (through Linden) have been better off, or worse, if that were the case?

I'm sorry to ramble so much, but all of these thoughts are tied up for me, so it's hard to separate just one portion of them! I also understand if you can't answer anything (RAFO - Read And Find Out - is a tortuous answer when I can't read anything new for three more years!), but I'd appreciate any thoughts you could spare on this topic.

and, in response,

Stephen R Donaldson wrote: Is it plausible that the ur-viles have reinterpreted their Weird? First, change is the very definition of life. Second, any living and thinking being is capable of conscious change. Third, any living, thinking being that is able to acquire new knowledge is capable of choices which may be radically different than its previous choices. (I speak from personal experience.) And the ur-viles aren't stupid. After a certain number of millennia trudging around the landscape getting slaughtered at LF's behest, some of them might well have noticed that they were on a self-destructive path. I consider it highly plausible that they are capable of reinterpreting their Weird.

But have they actually done so? What do the poor things have to do to earn your trust?

"What would Vain's transformation have been like, if he hadn't been "wounded" at the One Tree? How would the final Staff have been different, and was that more in line with what the Ur-Viles wanted at the time? Would we (through Linden) have been better off, or worse, if that were the case?" I'm sorry. This is unanswerable because it takes us outside the bounds of the actual story. (See the long statement by Douglas Adams quoted here months and months ago.) If I were telling a completely different story, what would all the differences be? I have no earthly idea. You're certainly free to speculate as much as you want about what the ur-viles may or may not have been trying to achieve when they created Vain. But I can't help you.

(03/12/2008)

I will add these other GI answers.

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:J.R.: Why did the Urviles make Vain, when his purpose went directly agaisnt that of Lord Foul's who they serve?

• The ur-viles created Vain *because* his purpose directly opposed Lord Foul's. Somewhere between the first and second "Chronicles"--we must assume--they engaged in a radical reinterpretation of their Weird. Hence the Despiser's attempts to destroy them in "White Gold Wielder."
  
  It's possible the ur-viles realized that they represent(ed) what we might call an evolutionary deadend. It's like this: in the name of their self-loathing, the ur-viles serve Lord Foul, who desires the destruction of the Earth, and who will therefore (if he succeeds) bring about the destruction of the ur-viles. As reasoning goes, that's nice and tidy. But it has a flaw or two. As a form of suicide, it's quite labor-intensive, and demonstrably unreliable. And self-destruction is not the only possible response to self-loathing.
  
  Conceivably the ur-viles were "corrupted" (in a manner of speaking) by the example of the Waynhim, creatures who clearly found a different use for their heritage of Despite.
  
  (04/14/2004)

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:Stephen Allange: ... There is one unanswered question that always comes to mind when I read the second chronicles, however. It is concerning Vain. Maybe I have missed it in the text, but why did the ur-viles create Vain? What was theirs to gain by his creation? What lore did they posess to be able to make his purpose mirror that of Findail's? Without Findail or Vain, there is no new staff. Were the Elohim and the ur-viles knowingly involved with one another to bring about the transformation? His purpose is plain, but why did the ur-viles create him, and how did Foamfollower wind up with him? ...

• A few details. It seems fairly obvious the the ur-viles had reinterpreted their Weird and decided to turn against Lord Foul. Why did they do so? Ah, therein lies a tale, without which "The Last Chronicles" might not be posssible. <grin> However, it's important to understand Findail is a reaction to Vain, Covenant, and Linden: Vain was not created in response to, or in concert with, the Elohim (although he may well have been created, in part, as an attempt to manipulate the Elohim). How did Covenant's Dead "wind up with him"? That's simple enough: the ur-viles *gave* Vain to them. Which may not have been *easy* to do--Andelain being rife with Earthpower and all--but it was certainly simple. After all, Caer-Caveral was "in the picture" as much as any of Covenant's Dead.
  
  (11/12/2004)

Self-destruction is not the only possible response to self-loathing.. C'mon, Worm, is it a coincidence that this phrase is in the GI and in your base post?