Kevin's Watch

What does everybody think will become of Roger in the long run? He is a master villain, a friend of Kastenessan, and a tool of LF, who has shown great deviousness and success in achieving their goals.

Of course, in the long run, I trust he will fail to achieve godhood, even if he helps LF the Betrayer succeeds in everything. Is there a clue in other good vs. evil stories as to the fate of such as Roger?

I think it ultimately depends on what Roger's ultimate goal is. If it is just to be a god, I think traditionally such people are humiliated greatly by their masters... though there is a rising tradition of the minion rising to power...

However, if his ultimate goal is to save his mom... here, he could fail in despair, turn and sacrifice for the greater good, or succeed somewhat only to find that his success didn't bring him what he wanted.

I think he needs redemption.

DWOLF wrote:I think he needs redemption.

I think his character needs further development before that could happen. Maybe we'll see that in AATE?

I have to see more of him...I don't recall him acting, or even hinting with a <rueful smile> that he has any redeeming qualities. I suppose he might do a reverse Darth Vader, [lost his hand, but he's the son] and sacrifice himself at the last minute [I don't really like that, though...].
He'd be a scary bastard with Kasty as one hand, and white gold on the other...
Pretty sure there's gonna be a "the family finally understands each other" bonding scene...but too late to save them.

Maybe somehow he'll replace TC in the Arch of Time, and TC, LA, and Jeremiah will live out their days in bliss in the reboirn Land

dlbpharmd wrote:

DWOLF wrote:I think he needs redemption.

I think his character needs further development before that could happen. Maybe we'll see that in AATE?

Roger Covenant has no character - in the moral sense, that is. What he needs is to die. As a believer in the theory of parallels I see Roger's eventual fate paralleling his real-world fate at the beginning of Runes.

As she moved, Roger's chest erupted in a spray of blood.

An instant later, gunfire and Lord Foul's blasts burned all light away, and she fell into the bottomless night.

Lord Foul's blasts? I thought they all came from the sheriff deputies.

Or was Linden just hallucinating?

I'm not saying either that they were Lord Foul's blasts or Linden was hallucinating. There is another explanation: the parallels theory.

Eventually the events depicted in the "real" world will come to pass in the Land, making the appropriate substitutions. For example, let's say Sheriff Lytton (and his deputies) is the parallel to Lord Foul (and possibly his ravers). I wouldn't say that Lord Foul will try to arrest Roger. I would think, knowing Roger's character, that he will try to betray Foul and take his place as a god in that universe. And so Foul will "arrest" him - with Joan's or Linden's wild magic.

The puppet wants to graduate to puppet-master. Roger has already shown great skill at pulling strings. But he is not just a Chessmaster as is Foul, Roger is a Magnificent Bastard. So I wouldn't doubt that Roger may even attempt to subvert and undermine an opponent as deadly as Foul.

I understand now. The Last Chrons are going to end with a huge fireworks display. Both white gold rings will be present, one held by Roger and the other by Foul. Foul will kill his mother which will send Roger over the edge. Nobody in their right mind attacks Lord Foul while he is wielding white gold. But nobody has directly fought with Foul before, and I wouldn't put anything past Roger especially when he's gone nuts. I wonder who all will be there? The Harrow perhaps?

But that won't be the true ending. What happens after the "shoot-out" will remain a mystery for the next 3 1/2 years.

One question does present itself: how will Roger and Foul acquire white gold? It seems fairly obvious (and with Donaldson that doesn't make it a fact);

1. Roger acquires white gold from Joan;
2. Foul acquires white gold from Linden - it worked when Covenant tried it, right?

But this time Roger, not Covenant, will be the Foul irritator. Like father - like son, in a way.

Oh never mind. I'm just talking to myself here. I won't even go into the battle between Roger and Linden in the Darkness between worlds.

Doesn't it suck wonderfully not knowing where things are headed?

Orlion wrote:Doesn't it suck wonderfully not knowing where things are headed?

You know everybody's predictions hold possibilities. There are probably no bad ideas, maybe not-so-good ones.

Vraith wrote:I have to see more of him...I don't recall him acting, or even hinting with a <rueful smile> that he has any redeeming qualities. I suppose he might do a reverse Darth Vader, [lost his hand, but he's the son] and sacrifice himself at the last minute [I don't really like that, though...].
He'd be a scary bastard with Kasty as one hand, and white gold on the other...
Pretty sure there's gonna be a "the family finally understands each other" bonding scene...but too late to save them.

Maybe. Even a Magnificent Bastard like Roger may have a heart. But I don't think Roger will ever see Linden as part of the family, and vice versa. Bad blood.

Sooo, there will have to be an adoptive-mommy/son moment. Because in my scenario I don't see Roger attacking Foul to defend Linden, I see him attacking because he wants ultimate power in that universe. Jeremiah will have to snap out of his self-imposed mental stasis first. Thinking themselves safe (and since Linden is forever doomed to carry the "idiot ball" even beyond her mortal existence, perhaps the family moment will occur in the Darkness, only to be interrupted by Roger who they can't see there hovering around and listening in on such a "sweet, delicate moment." I can hear him now...

I've just worked out the last chapter of The Last Dark in my head based on these premises, although I won't put it down in black-and-white. Besides, my mind works so fast that I can't write fiction, I can only think it. If I try, I lose the thoughts before they have a chance make it down on paper because my mind races ahead.

sindatur wrote:Maybe somehow he'll replace TC in the Arch of Time, and TC, LA, and Jeremiah will live out their days in bliss in the reboirn Land

Only if the Creator grants their lives back to them, reminiscent of the promise he made to Covenant at the end of the 3rd to the Last Chrons. Except this time Covenant has no choice because he not lying in a hospital bed dying from an anti-venin reaction.

Orlion wrote:I think it ultimately depends on what Roger's ultimate goal is. If it is just to be a god, I think traditionally such people are humiliated greatly by their masters... though there is a rising tradition of the minion rising to power...

However, if his ultimate goal is to save his mom... here, he could fail in despair, turn and sacrifice for the greater good, or succeed somewhat only to find that his success didn't bring him what he wanted.

Joan is struck by lightning and killed at the bonfire sequence in Runes. Roger barely reacted to this, possibly he's seen people killed by lightning many times before.

A lightning strike that close to a group of people would be likely to affect all of them physically as well as mentally.

Why did Donaldson invent such a gratuitous act of violence? Why not have Joan instead gunned down by the deputies like the rest of them? Because, I say, these events presage events to occur near the end of TLD.

I think Donaldson would have made Roger more three-dimensional if he was going to be redeemed. He seems to be lost for good.

However, the reason he's in the story, and not any evil jerk, is that he is Covenant's son. That has to be important.

Not because I see Roger as being Covenant's heir. (Linden was Covenant's heir; Liand is hers.) But because I can see Roger's fate having an affect on Covenant. As Jeremiah's fate has on Linden.

Unfortunately, we don't really know what Thomas feels for Roger at this point. So it's hard to predict too much.

wayfriend wrote:I thing Donaldson would have made Roger more three-dimensional if he was going to be redeemed. He seems to be lost for good.

However, the reason he's in the story, and not any evil jerk, is that he is Covenant's son. That has to be important.

Not because I see Roger as being Covenant's heir. (Linden was Covenant's heir; Liand is hers.) But because I can see Roger's fate having an affect on Covenant. As Jeremiah's fate has on Linden.

Unfortunately, we don't really know what Thomas feels for Roger at this point. So it's hard to predict too much.

I agree Roger is irredeemable. There is or will be a parallel between Roger in the present Chrons and Covenant in the Second to the Last Chrons. They may all meet in Kiril Threndor as before. But where Covenant brought down Foul's wrath previously, through Roger we will see Foul's utter fury. It will be Despite at its meanest and ugliest. A being such as Foul won't go down easily. The Last Chrons is going to go out with a huge bang.

It just occurred to me that we don't know what Joan might have told the young Roger as to why his father wasn't around. Whatever she did tell him might have significantly colored Roger's feelings.

It's possible she was still feeling so guilty that she didn't admit "I left him because I was afraid and I wanted to protect us" ... she could have told him anything. "Your father was a danger to you" would be the kind of thing Donaldson would have a character say. A true statement, yet far from the reality of her actions.