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If the Lords knew what Foul knew, would it have changed LFB?
Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:44 pm
by aTOMiC
If the Council of Lords knew the whole truth of Lord Foul's plans and prophecy, they might have changed their tactics. If Lord Foul's detailed intentions were revealed to them, I think they may have foregone the quest for the staff of law and bent all of their energies toward finding a way to destroy the Illearth Stone at any cost. Once they realized that taking the Staff away from Drool essentially placed the Stone into Lord Foul's hands I wonder if they would have decided against it. Foul would have naturally tried to counter a different strategy than the one he envisioned, but at least the Lords wouldn't have played directly into Lord Foul's ultimate goals. Hmmm...
Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:58 pm
by Revan
Heh, I posted the last option. No, I don't think it would, because Foul didn't have to do as much as you might think to make the prophecy come true. Prophecies are slef forfilling.
Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:19 pm
by birdandbear
"Say to the Council of Lords, and to High Lord Prothall son of Dwillian, that the uttermost limit of their span of days upon the Land is seven times seven years from this present time. Before the end of those days are numbered, I will have the command of life and death in my hand. And as a token that what I say is the one word of truth, tell them this: Drool Rockworm, Cavewight of Mount Thunder, has found the Staff of Law, which was lost ten times a hundred years ago by Kevin at the Ritual of Desecration. Say to them that the task appointed to their generation is to regain the Staff. Without it, they will not be able to resist me for seven years, and my complete victory will be achieved six times seven years earlier than it would be else.
"As for you, groveler: do not fail with this message. If you do not bring it before the Council, then every human in the Land will be dead before ten seasons have passed. You do not understand -- but I tell you Drool Rockworm has the Staff, and that it is a cause for terror. He will be enthroned at Lord's Keep in two years if the message fails. Already, the Cavewights are marching to his call; and wolves, and urviles of the Demondim, answer the power of the Staff. But war is not the worst peril. Drool delves ever deeper into the dark roots of Mount Thunder -- Gravin Threndor, Peak of the Fire-Lions. And there are banes buried in the deeps of the Earth too potent and terrible for any mortal to control. They would make of the universe a hell forever. But such a bane Drool seeks. He searches for the Illearth Stone. If he becomes its master, there will be woe for low and high alike until Time itself falls.
I think the Lords had no choice. Foul was speaking the literal truth when he said that every human in the Land would be dead in 10 seasons if Drool was allowed to retain possession of the Staff. Half truths are always much more effective than blatant lies. Foul told Covenant that Drool was seeking the Illearth Stone, but neglected to mention that Drool was in no way strong enough to resist being destroyed by it. The Staff though....it might have destroyed Drool eventually, but I think not before he turned the Land into a living hell. I think that even though the Quest for the Staff of Law did play directly into Foul's hands, if there had been no quest, Drool would have just done Foul's dirty work for him, and the Lords would have been defeated without ever making it out of the gate.
Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:14 pm
by variol son
Without the SoL, and the @nd Ward, the Council had no way to destroy the Illearth Stone. They needed the Staff to survive the next 47 years at all, and they needed the Ward to create Revelwood, which I think would have attracted a lot more people to the Loresraat because it was like a tangible sign of some sort of victory.
Sum sui generis
Vs
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:40 am
by Reisheiruhime
I don't care. Leave me alone.
That depends. Would knowing how to turn a toaster into a hair dryer have changed LFB?
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:22 am
by aTOMiC
Itchy Purple Snowflake wrote:I don't care. Leave me alone.
That depends. Would knowing how to turn a toaster into a hair dryer have changed LFB?
Exactly!!!! I knew someone would post the perfect answer to this thread! Bravo!!!!
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 12:51 pm
by dANdeLION
Look at how hard it was to reclaim the Staff, which was basically accomplished with Foul's blessing. Imagine, then, that they tried instead to go after the Illearth stone, which they were made fully aware of by Foul's prophesy. Not only would Drool have stood in their way, but also Foul. They would have been without the Staff, too. Even if they beat impossible odd and survived long enough to grab the Stone, it would have immediately corrupted whoever got it, just like the sliver corrupted the Bloodguard in TIW. No, the Lords had knowledge enough to make the right decision (the only decision), and they did so.
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 12:56 pm
by hierachy
I have to agree with dAN here, wait... what am I saying...scrap that
I have to agree with birdandbear here, the lords had no choice.
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:32 pm
by dANdeLION
Hierachy wrote:I have to agree with dAN
You would do well to agree with me more, Dagon.
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:39 pm
by aTOMiC
I totally understand that ithe Lords were left with no choice. I get that. Here is a question. Would the Lords have done anything differently if they knew that the Giants would be murdered almost to the last one because the Illearth Stone fell into the hands of Lord Foul? That creatures beyond number would be warped horribly because the Illearth stone fell into the hands of Lord Foul? That the vow of the Bloodguard would be corrupted because the Illearth stone fell into the hands of Lord Foul? If they knew as surely as Foul knew what was going to happen, I suspect they might, just might have changed their game plan a little bit. Maybe. Just a tiny widdle bit. perhaps. sort of...
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:42 pm
by Forestal
if they had known they probably would have sent word to the giants far far sooner... but then that would only serve the giants coming to revelstone, and being mastered in the keep... imagine what a riot 3 giant ravers would have made if they got inside lords keep!
oh deary me...
Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:21 am
by aTOMiC
Forestal wrote:if they had known they probably would have sent word to the giants far far sooner... but then that would only serve the giants coming to revelstone, and being mastered in the keep... imagine what a riot 3 giant ravers would have made if they got inside lords keep!
oh deary me...
That would only mean they were close at hand for the Lords to CRUSH THEM LIKE THE PITIABLE MAGGOTS THEY ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or perhaps not.
Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:16 am
by Forestal
perhaps not is right
Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:34 am
by Reisheiruhime
Cromas Tummins wrote:Itchy Purple Snowflake wrote:I don't care. Leave me alone.
That depends. Would knowing how to turn a toaster into a hair dryer have changed LFB?
Exactly!!!! I knew someone would post the perfect answer to this thread! Bravo!!!!
*Elvis voice* Thank you, thank you very much.
And the Giant-Ravers are not pitiable maggots! They're pitiable demented squirrels.
?
Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:31 am
by Zephalephelah
Do you really believe they were trapped by fate?
That's a little silly isn't it? A little naive' perhaps?
Even Morham came to realize that withholding dangerous knowledge made things worse. If you have knowledge of the Giant's plight you can stop it from happening. You can fight it.
If knowledge changes nothing, then why bother trying to do anything at all since it is all fate anyway?
Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:34 am
by Forestal
because you have to. if you knew that doing what ur doing would result in failure, and u stopped, then fate would be changed.
its a never ending circle that is constantly updating itself.
lose-lose situation.
Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:42 am
by Fist and Faith
I don't think it mattered what they knew. They simply didn't have the power to fight Foul. White gold was Foul's objective, and the only reason he didn't just crush them in the first place is because that would have lessened his chance to get it from Covenant.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:05 am
by aTOMiC
Itchy Purple Snowflake wrote:Cromas Tummins wrote:Itchy Purple Snowflake wrote:I don't care. Leave me alone.
That depends. Would knowing how to turn a toaster into a hair dryer have changed LFB?
Exactly!!!! I knew someone would post the perfect answer to this thread! Bravo!!!!
*Elvis voice* Thank you, thank you very much.
And the Giant-Ravers are not pitiable maggots! They're pitiable demented squirrels.
I thought they were maggots. Oh well. Shows what I know about insults. I'd better ask dAN his opinion. He seems to have a flair for derogatory remarks.
Re: ?
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:08 am
by aTOMiC
Zephalephelah wrote:Do you really believe they were trapped by fate?
That's a little silly isn't it? A little naive' perhaps?
Even Morham came to realize that withholding dangerous knowledge made things worse. If you have knowledge of the Giant's plight you can stop it from happening. You can fight it.
If knowledge changes nothing, then why bother trying to do anything at all since it is all fate anyway?
Your statement cuts pretty much to the point of my post. Would knowlege have changed their tacticts? I'm guessing in some ways yes and then in some ways no.
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:33 am
by Fist and Faith
OK, aside from my belief that it wouldn't have mattered, no, I don't think the Lords would have done other than what Foul wanted. Two instances come to mind when they knew - or at least assumed, for the sake of argument - that they were doing just what Foul wanted, but did it anyway.
LFB,
The Great Challenge:
Prothall nodded glumly to Osondrea, and Mhoram took up the line of her reasoning. "So Lord Foul relies upon us to save him and damn ourselves. In some way, he intends that our response to ur-Lord Covenant's message will spring upon ourselves a trap which holds both us and him. He has pretended friendship to Drool to preserve himself until his plans are ripe. And he has taught Drool to use this newfound power in ways which will satisfy the Cavewight's lust for mastery without threatening us directly. Thus he attempts to ensure that we will make trial to wrest the Staff of Law from Drool."
"And therefore," Osondrea barked, "it would be utterest folly for us to make trial."
"How so?" Mhoram objected. "The message said 'Without it, they will not be able to resist me for seven years.' He fortells a sooner end for us if we do not make the attempt, or if we attempt and fail, than if we succeed."
"What does he gain by such foretellings? What but our immediate deaths? His message is only a lure of false hope to lead us into folly."
But Mhoram replied by quoting, "'Drool Rockworm has the Staff, and that is a cause for terror. He will be enthroned at Lord's Keep in two years if the message fails.'"
"The message has not failed!" Orondrea insisted. "We are forewarned. We can prepare. Drool is mad, and his attacks will be flawed by madness. It may be that we will find his weakness and prevail. By the Seven! Revelstone will never fall while the Bloodguard remain. And the Giants and Ranyhyn will come to our aid." Turning toward the High Lord, she urged, "Prothall, do not follow the lure of this quest. It is a chimera. We will fall under the shadow, and the Land will surely die."
"But if we succeed," Mhoram countered, "if we gain the Staff, then our chance is prolonged. Lord Foul's prophecy notwithstanding, we may find enough Earthpower in the Staff to prevail in war. And if we do not, still we will have that much more time to search for other salvations."
Covenant and Elena, when she was about to use the PoC:
"Don't you see it?" he gasped. "This is all some plot of Foul's. We're being manipulated - you're being manipulated. Something terrible is going to happen."
For a time, she remained silent while he ached. Then, in a tone of austere conviction, she said, "I cannot let pass this chance to serve the Land. I am forewarned. If this is Fangthane's best ploy to defeat us, it is also our best means to strike at him. I do not fear to measure my will against his..."
Yes, Elena was a fool in that particular instance. But that idea - that Foul may have wanted them to do certain things, but it was also their best chance - was the prevailing thought in both cases. They assumed Foul had something up his sleeve, they considered other options, and still did what he wanted/hoped/knew they would.