Kevin's Watch

I've been trying to work this one out on my own since Donaldson won't tell me. Maybe someone here knows the answer.

Toward the end of Dark and Hung, Liete, in charge of Captain's Fancy, decides to disobey Nick's orders and attack Tranquil Hegemony.

What I want to know is this: what would have happened if Liete had obeyed Nick's order to bring down Sorus' ship instead?

SRD only invents what he needs...and he stick to that answer. Nevertheless, it takes only slight reflection to come up with a response to your question:

There would be no story. Soar would have been destroyed, thus unavailable to do what it did later. In any case, Tranquil Hegemony would have destroyed Captains Fancy immediately and both Tranquil Hegemony and Calm Horizons would have been available to detain/disable Trumpet.

The last two books never happen. The Dragon and the Amnion win.

Savor Dam wrote:SRD only invents what he needs...and he stick to that answer. Nevertheless, it takes only slight reflection to come up with a response to your question:

I know he only invents what he needs. On the other hand, he HAS answered such questions in the GI, at least once.

Savor Dam wrote:There would be no story. Soar would have been destroyed, thus unavailable to do what it did later. In any case, Tranquil Hegemony would have destroyed Captains Fancy immediately and both Tranquil Hegemony and Calm Horizons would have been available to detain/disable Trumpet.

The last two books never happen. The Dragon and the Amnion win.

Awesome. But here's why I ask: wouldn't this course of action be suicidal for Nick?

After seeing Sorus again, Nick care more about revenge than anything else. Was not his ultimate attempt on Sorus suicidal...even if it had not ended as it did?

Savor Dam wrote:After seeing Sorus again, Nick care more about revenge than anything else. Was not his ultimate attempt on Sorus suicidal...even if it had not ended as it did?

I agree that Nick was not in his right mind, and hadn't been for some time. There was a point where he snapped, I don't remember what happened exactly to cause it.

However, assaulting Sorus' ship, risky as it was, stood a chance of success, don't you agree? (And along with I think many other Gap readers, I believe he deserved a better end.)

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: However, assaulting Sorus' ship, risky as it was, stood a chance of success, don't you agree? (And along with I think many other Gap readers, I believe he deserved a better end.)

Am I alone in thinking that the only problem with Nick's end was that it didn't come quickly enough?

That man just wouldn't die...

It might have succeeded, but again, that would have resulted in the capture of Trumpet and the triumph of the wrong side of the struggle.

I did feel that Nick's death was an anti-climax and was let down by it...but in retrospect, I do understand why SRD felt this was the appropriate and condign end for him.

Savor Dam wrote:It might have succeeded, but again, that would have resulted in the capture of Trumpet and the triumph of the wrong side of the struggle.

I just realized something: Savor Dam, Save oR Damn, S-R-D, Stephen R. Donaldson.

Would you happen to live around the Phoenix area?

Savor Dam wrote:I did feel that Nick's death was an anti-climax and was let down by it...but in retrospect, I do understand why SRD felt this was the appropriate and condign end for him.

He said something about his end being symmetrical (and logical, as if this matters in novels). But what is so symmetrical about it?

You flatter me, Worm. Thank you, but no.

No, I am not an alternate identity for The Man. I am just a fan in the Seattle area...nowhere near Phoenix or Albuquerque.

Savor Dam wrote:You flatter me, Worm. Thank you, but no.

No, I am not an alternate identity for The Man. I am just a fan in the Seattle area...nowhere near Phoenix or Albuquerque.

Damn, I thought you might say: "No, Albuquerque."

So what about this symmetry?

I can't say that I have a good understanding of the symmetry. Perhaps someone else who does will jump in...or if something occurs to me, I will offer it up.

Right now, I do not have anything.

Savor Dam wrote:I can't say that I have a good understanding of the symmetry. Perhaps someone else who does will jump in...or if something occurs to me, I will offer it up.

Right now, I do not have anything.

Sorus made Nick the person he was. And what Sorus giveth, Sorus taketh away.

Rigel wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: However, assaulting Sorus' ship, risky as it was, stood a chance of success, don't you agree? (And along with I think many other Gap readers, I believe he deserved a better end.)

Am I alone in thinking that the only problem with Nick's end was that it didn't come quickly enough?

That man just wouldn't die...

You might be alone in that. I saw from The Real Story on a powerful and eventually tragic father-figure, not the kind that consoles the child, but the kind that teaches him to swim by throwing him into the deep end, then stands there with his toothy pirate grin watching him flail helplessly in the water until he figures it out.

As for taken so long to die, I believe Donaldson milked his character for all he was worth because he was worth it. If I had created as brilliant a character as Nick Succurso I would have done the same thing.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Savor Dam wrote:After seeing Sorus again, Nick care more about revenge than anything else. Was not his ultimate attempt on Sorus suicidal...even if it had not ended as it did?

I agree that Nick was not in his right mind, and hadn't been for some time. There was a point where he snapped, I don't remember what happened exactly to cause it.

Along with running into Sorus again, it was the whole charade that Morn played on him. Nick needed, more than anything else, to believe that women fawned over him, that he was irresistably The Man. His entire self-concept was based on this need. He had come to believe that Morn was absolutely taken by him. When he found out he was the one who'd been taken, it sent him over the edge.

Relayer wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Savor Dam wrote:After seeing Sorus again, Nick care more about revenge than anything else. Was not his ultimate attempt on Sorus suicidal...even if it had not ended as it did?

I agree that Nick was not in his right mind, and hadn't been for some time. There was a point where he snapped, I don't remember what happened exactly to cause it.

Along with running into Sorus again, it was the whole charade that Morn played on him. Nick needed, more than anything else, to believe that women fawned over him, that he was irresistably The Man. His entire self-concept was based on this need. He had come to believe that Morn was absolutely taken by him. When he found out he was the one who'd been taken, it sent him over the edge.

Agree with everything you said Relayer, except for when the edge came.

The slide began with Morn, but he was going to get his revenge. Then Sorus showed up and shifted his priorities. The revenge on Morn wasn't enough. He positioned Captain's Fancy for that revenge, believing he would find a way to win and keep the Fancy. But Liete saved him from his folly, and losing the Fancy (and possibly being saved by a woman) knocked the cheese from his cracker.

That's a good point... must be getting close to time for another re-read

ItisWritten wrote:

Relayer wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: I agree that Nick was not in his right mind, and hadn't been for some time. There was a point where he snapped, I don't remember what happened exactly to cause it.

Along with running into Sorus again, it was the whole charade that Morn played on him. Nick needed, more than anything else, to believe that women fawned over him, that he was irresistably The Man. His entire self-concept was based on this need. He had come to believe that Morn was absolutely taken by him. When he found out he was the one who'd been taken, it sent him over the edge.

Agree with everything you said Relayer, except for when the edge came.

The slide began with Morn, but he was going to get his revenge. Then Sorus showed up and shifted his priorities. The revenge on Morn wasn't enough. He positioned Captain's Fancy for that revenge, believing he would find a way to win and keep the Fancy. But Liete saved him from his folly, and losing the Fancy (and possibly being saved by a woman) knocked the cheese from his cracker.

Losing his ship came much later. You're giving a synopsis of the plot-line following Nick. I seem to recall Nick finally losing his mind during his interview with the Bill when something in his perspective shifted. It may be the case that his choices thereafter became more and more irrational. However, this is the point where his mind snapped.

Oh, he'd lost his mind way back when Sorus marked him. But he'd been able to hold it together all through the years because of the successes along the way and the hope of revenge. Seeing Sorus just brought him in focus to his Endgame. Everything else took a back seat--except the Fancy. Losing that turned his world upside down. It returned him to the lost kid betrayed and marked by Sorus.

Savor Dam wrote:SRD only invents what he needs...and he stick to that answer. Nevertheless, it takes only slight reflection to come up with a response to your question:

There would be no story. Soar would have been destroyed, thus unavailable to do what it did later. In any case, Tranquil Hegemony would have destroyed Captains Fancy immediately and both Tranquil Hegemony and Calm Horizons would have been available to detain/disable Trumpet.

The last two books never happen. The Dragon and the Amnion win.

This is where my question is going.

Nick escaped in the Needle despite the destruction of Fancy. But as I recall, Hegemony's guns were trained on the boarding party on the surface, including Nick (but not Angus). Don't you think they would have been obliterated by matter cannon instead of escaping as they did?

Rigel wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: However, assaulting Sorus' ship, risky as it was, stood a chance of success, don't you agree? (And along with I think many other Gap readers, I believe he deserved a better end.)

Am I alone in thinking that the only problem with Nick's end was that it didn't come quickly enough?

That man just wouldn't die...

You're not alone. Nick's storyline was starting to wear thin. When they gave him back the codes, I was ready for the flip-flop of power to be over. I can't think of a better way to do it, but I could definitely tell that Nick's story was over for 100s of pages before he actually died. His end was perfect, in my eyes.

As for the symmetry, I think it goes back to the "triangle." Angus got a hero's end (reversing himself from the worst villian). Morn got a martyr's end--at least emotionally (reversing herself from the girl who destroyed her family). And Nick got a punk's end (the reverse of the swashbuckling pirate). Perfectly symmetrical. Everyone ended up the opposite of how they began.