Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:07 pm**

I have a GI question in to SRD about this but wanted to get some other opinions on it (he has not answered it as yet, either publically or privately). If this has been discussed somewhere on the Watch before I apologize, but I couldn't find anything about it. My question to SRD and to my fellow Watchers has to do with Vain's name. I assume that "Vain" is the human translation of Vain's ur-vile name. The word vain can have a couple pretty different meanings (another paradox

):

1) conceit, excessive pride
2) futility

When I first read the Chronicles I always assumed his name referred to definition number 1 since he was the ur-viles "ultimate" creation, he was their "conceit" so to speak. However, as time has gone on and in reading the Last Chronicles, I think that number 2 also fits since he is also their attempt to thwart Foul by making something "of Law", or that will become Law (e.g. The Staff). And perhaps the futility of their situation, in both fighting against Foul and striving for perfection. What definition did SRD have in mind when he created Vain's name (that was my question to him)? What do you think?

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:50 pm**

Well...there's also an older definition that means "empty," which he is in a way, until bonded with the Elohim.

Knowing SRD, it could be all of them are intended.
It could also be that it just sounded right [like krill], but a word as common as Vain, I think it was intentional.
Be interested to see what he says.

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:20 pm**

Some definitions of vain I have found:

fruitless

lacking substance or worth; worthless

conceited; having an exaggerated sense of self-importance

foolish

given to ostentatious display

senseless or futile

an egotistical disregard of others

Lots of these seem to apply in one way or another.

"Lacking substance" may refer to his being pure structure that needs to be filled in with Law and Earthpower and percipience.

"an exaggerated sence of self-importance" may refer to his awareness of his purpose, to the extent that nothing else matters to him.

"egotistical disregard of others" may refer to one of Vain's obvious traits.

"given to ostentatious display" may refer to the perfection of his physical form.

Some combination of these is, I feel, the answer.

Note that Vain was created by the ur-viles. The fact that the Viles named themselves "Viles", and the ur-viles named themselves the new Viles, may indicate that there is some sort of propensity in ur-vile names for irony or humility or some other thing we may not understand.

Lastly, remember that Donaldson picked a name which would leave us on the knife's edge of trusting/mistrusting Vain. A name which is too positive or a name which is too negative would undermine Donaldson's purpose.

Pride, and Vanity, are also knife's edge words. Pride is a deadly sin, and yet pride is also often expected or allowed. Vanity is similarly accounted as a negative trait, and yet an utter lack of vanity is negative also.

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:50 pm**

wayfriend, good "vain" definition list. I guess the only one I would not apply to Vain is "foolish", at least not to his face...

As for Vraith's "empty" definition, I've never heard of that one, but interesting...Vain certainly appears "empty" most of the time.

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:47 pm**

Zenlunatic wrote:wayfriend, good "vain" definition list. I guess the only one I would not apply to Vain is "foolish", at least not to his face... As for Vraith's "empty" definition, I've never heard of that one, but interesting...Vain certainly appears "empty" most of the time.

It's middle english, IIRC, and when listed at all has the [archaic] or [obsolete] notation.
But that is no bar at all to SRD, given his nature.

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:18 pm**

Vraith wrote:
Zenlunatic wrote:wayfriend, good "vain" definition list. I guess the only one I would not apply to Vain is "foolish", at least not to his face... As for Vraith's "empty" definition, I've never heard of that one, but interesting...Vain certainly appears "empty" most of the time.
It's middle english, IIRC, and when listed at all has the [archaic] or [obsolete] notation.
But that is no bar at all to SRD, given his nature.

Yes, as I was reading this thread I was thinking "pick the most archaic meaning and that's probably where SRD was going with it".

Posted: **Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:40 am**

None of the ur-viles are referred to by name.

Maybe Vain, whilst having all the English definitions, is just a title to the ur-viles.

Spoiler

In the same way that the titles for the Inquest are abstract and self-gratifying

Posted: **Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:22 pm**

Vain also sounds like vein. Covenant's blood turned black.

And vane? could this have something to do with the Master Rukh?

Posted: **Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:29 pm**

Vain is a perfect name for Vain, he excludes arrogance and certainty, cares for little other than his own survival.what would we have him called Homer or Bart?

Posted: **Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:36 pm**

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:Michael from Santa Fe: I don't think I'm way off base when I say that Vain has always been a fascinating character for a lot of fans of the Chronicles. There have certainly been a good many GI questions about him. He's just very cool, even though he never says a word. He's mysterious yet very powerful (maybe that's why he's so cool, the ultimate "dark, silent type" :-). Well, here's another question about him. I've always wondered about his name. I assume since the ur-Viles created him, that they named him (?). I would also assume (perhaps, wrongly?) that their name was in their language and that perhaps "Vain" is the human translation of that ur-Vile name. The word vain can have two meanings, 1) to be conceited, full of self-importance, etc. or 2) futility. I've always wondered which of the two meanings you were thinking of when you named him? Both? Since the ur-Viles were so full of "unworth", I guess for lack of a better word, I thought his name was more about definition number 2 and the futility of their situation. But over time, and in reading the GI, I think number 1 also fits, it's their conceit in trying to oppose Foul by creating something of Law (or that will become Law). Am I in the ballpark of how you saw him and why you named him the way you did (sorry for all the baseball metaphors, just that time of the year I guess :-)).
Remembering that I wouldn't have used the name if it didn't *sound* right to my ear, I can honestly say that I had both definitions in mind. They work well together. The self-loathing of the ur-viles urges them to think of anything *not* themselves as a kind of perfection (perfection of form and function as defined by Law; perfection of their Weird): hence the sheer conceit of their ambitions. But perfection--or any desire to be something substantively different than what they are (e.g. "natural" rather than "artificial")--is unattainable: hence the futility of their ambitions.

But I also had something more obscure in mind. "Vain" is a homonym for "vane"--and (wait for it) Vain is a kind of weathervane: he shows which way the wind is blowing for the ur-viles.

Jeez Louise. Are authors really this lame?

(08/18/2010)

Posted: **Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:58 pm**

Thanks Wayfriend for posting his reply. And actually, I would have to agree with him on the whole "weathervane" definition, that one never entered my mind. Yes, on a lameness scale of 1 to 10, that's about a 12

But cool that he revealed his complete thought process...

Posted: **Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:49 am**

I think Vraiths observation regarding the Krill might be closest to the mark ie that the name first and foremost had to 'strike the right note' for the charachter - which it most assuredly does and was quite possibly struck upon by chance but then seen as appropriate by virtue of all the associations listed above.

(An aside. You will notice I start this post with the words 'I think....'. In typing it I realised I had made an error and looking at the screen found I had typed the words 'I thik....'. No, No, No, this won't do I thought and corrected the error. On reading the post before submitting it I discovered I had inadvertantly left the mis-spelt word in and the post now read 'I think thik....'
Am I trying to tell myself something.....?).

Kevin's Watch

That's Mr. Vain to you...(aka Vain's name)

That's Mr. Vain to you...(aka Vain's name)

It just seams right