Kevin's Watch

Well, Heinlein certainly was subtle, wasn't he?

I just finished the book, and next is The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

Anyway, on to Lazarus Long...

I can't describe my full reaction to this work. The idea of continually rejuvenating yourself, and beginning a new life (with a new profession, etc) is certainly appealing. Essentially, when you get tired enough you just go back to 20 and start over. Who wouldn't love that?

Of course, he then proceeds a full frontal assault on cultural mores and taboos...

Honestly, though, I can't help but feel that the vision of romantic freedom is appealing on one level, but it's also a bit naive to me.

For one thing, I'm a hopeless romantic, and I like the idea of romantic attachment too much to give up monogamy easily.

For another, he handily ignores the idea of wars. Stating that interstellar warfare is impractical, he then ignores the possibility of localized warfare for the duration of the book.

Sorry if I seem rambling a bit, but there's just so much in this book... it's essentially the story of several different lfietimes.

One question, though: what are we to make of the ending? Literal interpretation of the statements by the characters, or they're just being supportive?

Spoiler

"Maureen?" Lazarus murmured.
"I'm here, darling," Tamara answered.
...
"Just a dream, Beloved. You cannot die."

Given that Lazarus explicitly stated he didn't know what became of Maureen, are we to understand that she really is Tamara? Especially since the previous page ("You are you, playing chess with yourself, and again you have checkmated yourself") seems to lend credence to the immortality bit...

...or is it supposed to be something along the lines of reincarnation, that Lazarus is every human in turn? There are certainly parts of the book where he goes back and forth between talking about another person, and talking as if he is that person...

...or is it none of those, and Tamara was just comforting him with the typical "Don't die!" type of comment?

Read To Sail Beyond the Sunset if you want to know about Maureen. To say more than that would give the game away. Really, read it!

Heinlein…it is difficult to know what to say about him. I cut my pleasure-reading teeth on some of his stories written for the boy market...then I discovered what he wrote for grownups. Half a lifetime ago in my early and mid-twenties (in a simpler and more brightly-lit world), I was totally enthralled with his stories, even some that were not very good. For a few decades after than, both I and the world grew much more jaded and cynical. I thought I saw through Heinlein and threw the baby out with the bathwater; considering much of his catalog to be little more than thinly disguised soft-core porn.

Now, I am not so sure. Many of my mid-life affectations now seem more hollow than those of my youth. Some of RAH's books, particularly The Number of the Beast are a mess and deserve the scorn with which I came to regard them. Others are incredible! Consider Stranger in a Strange Land. For when he wrote it – even for when it was published, which was well after when he wrote it – it is an amazing work, truly groundbreaking and executed nearly flawlessly.

Do I believe in such? I am back to at least no longer dismissing it out of hand.

Time Enough for Love is quite probably my absolute favourite Heinlein, closely followed by The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and of course, Stranger.

The Notebooks of Lazarus Long contain some of my favourite sayings of all time.

In theory, I find myself agreeing with a lot of what Heinlein is suggesting in it.

(As SD mentions above, To Sail Beyond the Sunset concludes the Lazarus Long timeline.)

Don't know if you've read it, but Methuselah's Children is a prequel and deals with the beginning of the great diaspora.

--A

Avatar wrote:Time Enough for Love is quite probably my absolute favourite Heinlein, closely followed by The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and of course, Stranger.

The Notebooks of Lazarus Long contain some of my favourite sayings of all time.

In theory, I find myself agreeing with a lot of what Heinlein is suggesting in it.

(As SD mentions above, To Sail Beyond the Sunset concludes the Lazarus Long timeline.)

Don't know if you've read it, but Methuselah's Children is a prequel and deals with the beginning of the great diaspora.

--A

Nobody has even mentioned Friday. So let me be the first.

I may have been harsh in my comments in the other thread. But there was reason for it: "Stranger...Land" is a pure classic. Other works are exceptional, especially considering the time of writing. And that's kinda why I hate Lazz.
I don't see the story necessity for his views/behaviors in much of it, [by which I mean, the views/behaviors seem to be lectures/set pieces from the author, not psychology/char developement of Lazz] and I don't see the necessity for him as a character in many of the story arcs: the purpose could have been served in other, perhaps better ways.
Maybe I should re-read them..was [I think...] in my early 20's when I did? Me, time, memories have an odd relationship.

Job, which no one has mentioned that I remember, I liked a lot.

The immortality book I really like is Spinrad's "Bug Jack Barron." for a while I wanted to be Jack Barron...at least be the guy with his job.

I love both those too. Friday and Job. Neither are part of the LL timeline though.

--A

Really, really liked it when I read it. Lo, these many years ago. I don't remember too many specifics by now. Would like to reread it. Definitely great. (I know I prefer Stranger, though.)

So Moon is a LL book?

Not specifically. It does fall into the same timeline though, and later on, the descendants of the characters meet up with LL. (In The Cat Whol Walked Through Walls.)

--A

Rigel wrote:Well, Heinlein certainly was subtle, wasn't he?.

One question, though: what are we to make of the ending? Literal interpretation of the statements by the characters, or they're just being supportive?

Spoiler

"Maureen?" Lazarus murmured.
"I'm here, darling," Tamara answered.
...
"Just a dream, Beloved. You cannot die."

Given that Lazarus explicitly stated he didn't know what became of Maureen, are we to understand that she really is Tamara? Especially since the previous page ("You are you, playing chess with yourself, and again you have checkmated yourself") seems to lend credence to the immortality bit...

...or is it supposed to be something along the lines of reincarnation, that Lazarus is every human in turn? There are certainly parts of the book where he goes back and forth between talking about another person, and talking as if he is that person...

...or is it none of those, and Tamara was just comforting him with the typical "Don't die!" type of comment?

I too am a hopeless romantic. So when I found sections of this book to be uncomfortable reading I forcibly turned a blind eye to them on the gut feeling that I'd miss out on a highly fantastic vision.

One thing was always in the back of my mind - Lazarus Long was a rogue and a liar: not to deceive but to reveal.

One thing about Heinlen and his contemporaries, is that they were essentially minimalists. They say more by revealing less.
For example, the population of New Rome wasn't as much as I thought it could be, for a city in 4032 (or whatever!!!). So why did the family have to go outdoors armed? This is too much like the old American wild-west. In a futuristic landscape the population should be millions. So perhaps it was only the population of the "Howards" that was the most important fact.
At least this gives my imagination free reign to explore other possibilities!

Spoiler

So, was Tamara, Maureen? I'd say yes, and no. Both could work towards a complete story arc.

Did L.L. become his own father?

I don't think so. It's too gross!
But the implications are there.
L.L. tells lies, right, so when he drove Maureen to the park what if she really wasn't pregnant. The kid in the trunk was carried into the back seat where he curled up into a featous (sp?) position. Maureen throws a blanket over him and they drive on to Electric Park.
I could be wrong, but I'm sure L.L. never had a younger sibling??

Conclusion: he really nicked the kid's toy elephant. He needed it as a memory aid, in addition to Maureen's gifts.
What happened in the sewing room has to be the consequences of time-travel - confusion, distortion of facts, disordered memories - hence, the nuemonic

I'm sure his true love was always Dora. His trip back in time was to solve the problem of getting her out of the navigation computer and back into the real world.

These are just some of my initial impressions on the story. I'd need to let the dust settle on this book. Someday I'd love to read it again.

Think I'll read it again soon.

--A