Kevin's Watch

Jeremiah. What the heck is he?

What do we know about him?
How old is he again?
I forget.

I just finished a back to back read of Runes and FR.
I don't know what the heck this kid is.
He has powers to make constructs?
How? No one else from the real world has such fantastic powers.
Hile troy had heightened earthsight but that was gift from the Land's health, as is Linden's.
Roger had to have his hand replaced for any type of power.
Jerry does have a Croyel, but is that the source of his power? It looked like he needed Roger's help to do anything.


I think he's evil.
I think he might be Foul or maybe Foul's son.
If only for the fact that the Last Chronicles is **ALL** about father's and sons.

3 times Linden asked beings of power in the Land where her son was.
(maybe more but no less)
3 times she was told that "The Despisor is hidden from me".
The answers were specific in that they answered her not with Jeremiah's location but with Foul's location.

That would make sense if Jerry was by Foul's side but we know he was running around with Roger not with Foul.
"Have your son" means his soul not him physically, imo.

Infelice calls Linden's love for Jerry false. (I don't have the book to give the exact quote). Like if Linden knew who Jeremiah really was she wouldn't feel the way she does.
Of course, it could also confirm how I feel about Linden's love for Jeremiah, totally twisted and self serving.

Thoughts?

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Infelice calls Linden's love for Jerry false. (I don't have the book to give the exact quote). Like if Linden knew who Jeremiah really was she wouldn't feel the way she does.
Of course, it could also confirm how I feel about Linden's love for Jeremiah, totally twisted and self serving.

Thoughts?

Linden's love for Jeremiah, or Covenant, the Harrow called "a Kevin's Dirt of the soul." And "Be cautious of love. There is a glamour upon it which binds the heart to destruction." Linden holds no love for the Elohim which partly explains why she did not heed any of Infelice's advice.

As for Jeremiah, it is left ambiguous whether his negative statement about Linden came from his own mind or from the croyel. If Jeremiah truly hates his adoptive mother then her love is misguided, not false. His objective relevance to the story at this moment is a cipher, we don't know where SRD is going with him, we are only given Linden's subjective statements and beliefs, female intuition.

So there is more to this story than the love angle. Certain characters represent logic and reasoning, Linden represents the other side of this coin, not irrationality and illogic, but intuition. Other characters attempt to reason with Linden but her intuition falsifies their reasoning. This could turn out to be a classic intuition-over-reason story, as with Spock's logic vs. Kirk's human intuition where Kirk always beats Spock at 3-d chess.

As for the question of what Jeremiah is, as of my reading he represents the "bait."

But of course it won't work. Love will win out against hatred, despite the long odds, as it should in all stories of good vs. evil.

And as for Jeremiah's powers, we don't know where they came from. But everybody on this forum, as far as I know, suspects that they will come in very handy at the end.

I myself see in Jeremiah a character like that found in some Stephen King novels, such as Dreamcatcher. Jeremiah is the Duddits of the Last Chrons. The ostensively (physically or mentally) weakest character will turn out to be the strongest, the one who holds all the keys to victory.

good question HLT!!

frankly, i got no clue. seems like SRD writes stuff in fits of inspiration
and then later has to tap dance his ass off to explain. but that's just
my perception.

and good answer WotWE!

I think originally he's much like all the others from the "real" world. Damaged goods, with particular talents. Jeremiah's "natural" talent may have been for sculpture...or topography...or multi-dimensional mathematics...Those talents don't become "powers" until they're touched by the Land...and Jeremiah was touched all those years ago...and like Joan, I don't think Foul ever let go.

I think he is bait, as Worm said...but speculate perhaps more: if Foul can keep him under control, once the arch goes, he might use that construct power for any number of things, perhaps even caging the Creator in a Foul made world; eye for an eye.

Vraith wrote:I think originally he's much like all the others from the "real" world. Damaged goods, with particular talents. Jeremiah's "natural" talent may have been for sculpture...or topography...or multi-dimensional mathematics...Those talents don't become "powers" until they're touched by the Land...and Jeremiah was touched all those years ago...and like Joan, I don't think Foul ever let go.

I think he is bait, as Worm said...but speculate perhaps more: if Foul can keep him under control, once the arch goes, he might use that construct power for any number of things, perhaps even caging the Creator in a Foul made world; eye for an eye.

We already know, from something Roger/Covenant said, that Jeremiah can use his powers to create a unique kind of prison, a one-way trip to nowhere.

Certainly Foul wouldn't deserve a lesser fate, and being immortal he can't be killed. Furthermore, if Linden is to be the creator of a new world, we can't have Foul hanging around spoiling things once again.

I can hardly wait for the part where Foul gets a taste of his own medicine: a blast of wild magic from a white gold ring. After all, I'm fully certain that he won't be entering one of Jeremiah's cages willingly.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Vraith wrote:I think originally he's much like all the others from the "real" world. Damaged goods, with particular talents. Jeremiah's "natural" talent may have been for sculpture...or topography...or multi-dimensional mathematics...Those talents don't become "powers" until they're touched by the Land...and Jeremiah was touched all those years ago...and like Joan, I don't think Foul ever let go.

I think he is bait, as Worm said...but speculate perhaps more: if Foul can keep him under control, once the arch goes, he might use that construct power for any number of things, perhaps even caging the Creator in a Foul made world; eye for an eye.

We already know, from something Roger/Covenant said, that Jeremiah can use his powers to create a unique kind of prison, a one-way trip to nowhere.

Certainly Foul wouldn't deserve a lesser fate, and being immortal he can't be killed. Furthermore, if Linden is to be the creator of a new world, we can't have Foul hanging around spoiling things once again.

I can hardly wait for the part where Foul gets a taste of his own medicine: a blast of wild magic from a white gold ring. After all, I'm fully certain that he won't be entering one of Jeremiah's cages willingly.

Agreed. I just think that Foul's plan, part of his "deeper purpose," is what I said. Do unto Creator as was done unto him.
Of course he'll fail.

Any thoughts on why Linden is repeatedly told that they don't know where Jeremiah is because they can't see Foul despite the fact that Jerry is with Roger?
I think that's HUGELY significant in some way.

Vraith wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Vraith wrote:I think originally he's much like all the others from the "real" world. Damaged goods, with particular talents. Jeremiah's "natural" talent may have been for sculpture...or topography...or multi-dimensional mathematics...Those talents don't become "powers" until they're touched by the Land...and Jeremiah was touched all those years ago...and like Joan, I don't think Foul ever let go.

I think he is bait, as Worm said...but speculate perhaps more: if Foul can keep him under control, once the arch goes, he might use that construct power for any number of things, perhaps even caging the Creator in a Foul made world; eye for an eye.

We already know, from something Roger/Covenant said, that Jeremiah can use his powers to create a unique kind of prison, a one-way trip to nowhere.

Certainly Foul wouldn't deserve a lesser fate, and being immortal he can't be killed. Furthermore, if Linden is to be the creator of a new world, we can't have Foul hanging around spoiling things once again.

I can hardly wait for the part where Foul gets a taste of his own medicine: a blast of wild magic from a white gold ring. After all, I'm fully certain that he won't be entering one of Jeremiah's cages willingly.

Agreed. I just think that Foul's plan, part of his "deeper purpose," is what I said. Do unto Creator as was done unto him.
Of course he'll fail.

Could be, I really don't know, I just speculate that he still has his eyes set on Linden!

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Any thoughts on why Linden is repeatedly told that they don't know where Jeremiah is because they can't see Foul despite the fact that Jerry is with Roger?
I think that's HUGELY significant in some way.

One thing I do know is that you can't kidnap the willing. And so if Jeremiah's presence cannot be discerned then its because he doesn't want to be found.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Jeremiah. What the heck is he?

What do we know about him?
How old is he again?
I forget.

Jeremiah is fifteen years old.

Bear in mind that SRD often chooses his characters' names for a reason, and then read about the original Jeremiah and see what ideas you might come up with.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Any thoughts on why Linden is repeatedly told that they don't know where Jeremiah is because they can't see Foul despite the fact that Jerry is with Roger?
I think that's HUGELY significant in some way.

One thing I do know is that you can't kidnap the willing. And so if Jeremiah's presence cannot be discerned then its because he doesn't want to be found.

But that has nothing to do with what's been said in the story.

DrPaul wrote:Bear in mind that SRD often chooses his characters' names for a reason, and then read about the original Jeremiah and see what ideas you might come up with.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah

Yeah, but then there's always Kevin.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Any thoughts on why Linden is repeatedly told that they don't know where Jeremiah is because they can't see Foul despite the fact that Jerry is with Roger?
I think that's HUGELY significant in some way.

One thing I do know is that you can't kidnap the willing. And so if Jeremiah's presence cannot be discerned then its because he doesn't want to be found.

But that has nothing to do with what's been said in the story.

I haven't recently had a chance to re-read. So I am kind of at a loss to know who said they couldn't reveal Jeremiah's whereabouts or for what reason.

Well, I don't think Jeremiah is Foul. I don't think it fits into the timescale. If he's only 15 in Runes then that makes him non-existent in the first Chronicles.

However, the reason I don't think he is is simply because I remember reading somewhere (or perhaps I heard it on one of the Elohimfest recordings) that Jeremiah originally wasn't in Runes of the Earth. It wasn't until SRD wrote some of Runes/the first draft he added Jeremiah. So, I'd think it was logical that if Jeremiah never existed to begin with (in the original story arc) then he wouldn't be Foul (and that sentence is supposed to make sense!).

Then again, I could be wrong...

...and, then again, I may have made that all up but I'm sure I read it/heard it somewhere.

DrPaul wrote:Bear in mind that SRD often chooses his characters' names for a reason, and then read about the original Jeremiah and see what ideas you might come up with.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah

Sung to Three Dog Night's Joy to the World...

Jeremiah was a prophet
He was a messenger of G-d
He was sent by G-d to teach the people a lesson
a lesson that they forgot

Shema yisroael
Shema yisroael
Shema yisroael Hashem elokaynu
Ha-ah-shem echod

The people wouldn't listen
They wouldn't hear a word
They prayed to their idols and committed sins
Sins that you've never heard

(and he was singing now...)

Shema yisroael...
etc., etc., etc.

...sorry
My days as a member of the Miami-based performance youth group The Chosen Children in the mid-'70s have reared their ugly head...

As you were...

Seareach wrote:Well, I don't think Jeremiah is Foul. I don't think it fits into the timescale. If he's only 15 in Runes then that makes him non-existent in the first Chronicles.

It makes him about 5 in the 2nd Chrons, and Roger was about 11.

Seareach wrote:However, the reason I don't think he is is simply because I remember reading somewhere (or perhaps I heard it on one of the Elohimfest recordings) that Jeremiah originally wasn't in Runes of the Earth. It wasn't until SRD wrote some of Runes/the first draft he added Jeremiah. So, I'd think it was logical that if Jeremiah never existed to begin with (in the original story arc) then he wouldn't be Foul (and that sentence is supposed to make sense!).

Then again, I could be wrong...

...and, then again, I may have made that all up but I'm sure I read it/heard it somewhere.

I think the OP's question is a great one, because the answer is supposed to be a mystery at this point so that means SRD has done a good job of writing the character.

Seareach wrote:Well, I don't think Jeremiah is Foul. I don't think it fits into the timescale. If he's only 15 in Runes then that makes him non-existent in the first Chronicles.

What about a son?
The only reason i think it's possible is that SRD has already said that Foul can pass between worlds or influence others in the real world (Joan maybe Roger too?).
If Jeremiah was just a few years old at the beginning of the second Chronicles then he was born at roughly the time of the Sunbane's dominance.

Keep in mind, all of Donaldson's characters have power within themselves. All of them. Also, the Land and everything happening is an externalization of an internal conflict. The source of Jeremiah's power is simple: being subject ot massive abuse, he seeks to hide away from the world, hence his ability to create constructs to exit the world. His power is a reflection of his own mental anguish.