Kevin's Watch

Anybody got thoughts on what our nature is? A multi-faceted question, perhaps. What is common to all of humanity? Maybe that's how we'd find the answer. Every human culture has had religion. At least I've never heard of one that doesn't. Every culture has had painting, music, and other arts. Marriage. Language. How many things can we add to this list?

But I don't think any of those is the answer. Not saying I have the answer, and what anybody else might say is wrong, but this is what seems right to me. The thing that is responsible for all that we have done, all we have created, all that we have discovered. Some of it good, some of it bad. Still, all came about because we strive.

That is our nature: to strive.

All of the things I listed above are things we subject to our strivings. We strive to know. We strive to understand. We strive to express ourselves. We strive to better ourselves. We strive to do what has not been done, because it has not been done.

Striving for a specific thing gives us purpose for the moment; and striving in general is what we do. We test ourselves, then look for the next test.

I've quoted these things before, except for the last one, from West Wing. But I've never offered them in this way; to ask for answers from the rest of you.

Jung:

The meaning and purpose of a problem seem to lie not in its solution but in our working at it incessantly.

Chris, from Northern Exposure:

I've been out here now for some days, groping my way along, trying to realize my vision here. I started concentrating so hard on my vision that I lost sight. I've come to find out that it's not the vision. It's not the vision at all. It's the groping. It's the groping, it's the yearning, it's the moving forward. I was so fixated on that flying cow that, when Ed told me Monty Python already painted that picture, thought I was through. I had to let go of that cow so that I could see all the other possibilities....... I think Kierkegard said it oh so well: “The self is only that which it’s in the process of becoming.” Art? Same thing. James Joyce had something to say about it too: “Welcome oh life! I go to encounter for the millionth time the reality of experience, and to forge in the smithy of my soul the uncreated conscious of my race.” We’re here today to fling something that bubbled up from the collective unconsciousness of our community......... The thing I learned folks, this is absolutely key: It’s not the thing you fling, it’s the fling itself.

Trek quote #1 - Data and his daughter (he made a daughter in one episode):

Lal: I watch them, and I can do the things they do. But I will never feel the emotions. I’ll never know love.

Data: It is a limitation we must learn to accept, Lal.

Lal: Then why do you still try to emulate humans. What purpose does it serve, except to remind you that you are incomplete?

Data: I have asked myself that, many times, as I have struggled to be more human. Until I realized it is the struggle itself that is most important. We must strive to be more than we are, Lal. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards.

Trek quote #2 - Data and Dr. Crusher:

Data: What is the definition of life?

Crusher: That is a BIG question. Why do you ask?

Data: I am searching for a definition that will allow me to test an hypotheses.

Crusher: Well, the broadest scientific definition might be that life is what enables plants and animals to consume food, derive energy from it, grow, adapt themselves to their surrounding, and reproduce.

Data: And you suggest that anything that exhibits these characteristics is considered alive.

Crusher: In general, yes.

Data: What about fire?

Crusher: Fire?

Data: Yes. It consumes fuel to produce energy. It grows. It creates offspring. By your definition, is it alive?

Crusher: Fire is a chemical reaction. You could use the same argument for growing crystals. But, obviously, we don't consider them alive.

Data: And what about me? I do not grow. I do not reprodue. Yet I am considered to be alive.

Crusher: That's true. But you are unique.

Data: Hm. I wonder if that is so.

Crusher: Data, if I may ask, what exactly are you getting at?

Data: I am curious as to what transpired between the moment when I was nothing more than an assemblage of parts in Dr. Sung's laboratory and the next moment, when I became alive. What is it that endowed me with life?

Crusher: I remember Wesley asking me a similar question when he was little. And I tried desperately to give him an answer. But everything I said sounded inadequate. Then I realized that scientists and philosophers have been grappling with that question for centuries without coming to any conclusion.

Data: Are you saying the question cannot be answered?

Crusher: No. I think I'm saying that we struggle all our lives to answer it. That it's the struggle that is important. That's what helps us to define our place in the universe.

West Wing:

Sam: There are a lot of hungry people in the world, Mal, and none of them are hungry 'cause we went to the moon. None of them are colder and certainly none of them are dumber 'cause we went to the moon.

Mallory: And we went to the moon. Do we really have to go to Mars?

Sam: Yes.

Mallory: Why?

Sam: 'Cause it's next. 'Cause we came out of the cave, and we looked over the hill and we saw fire. And we crossed the ocean, and we pioneered the west, and we took to the sky. The history of man is hung on a timeline of exploration and this is what's next.

All good examples, Fist.
But as to our nature, I'll stick with Anne Frank.

Everyone has inside of him a piece of good news. The good news is that you don't know how great you can be! How much you can love! What you can accomplish! And what your potential is!

I simply can't build my hopes on a foundation of confusion, misery and death... I think... peace and tranquility will return again.

It's really a wonder that I haven't dropped all my ideals, because they seem so absurd and impossible to carry out. Yet I keep them, because in spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart.

Yes, there are those who seek their own self-gratification over the needs of others. But I think in the end, basic human nature for the majority is that, despite laziness, motivation, or drive...
"people are really good at heart."

Honestly, there are dozens, maybe hundreds of statements/quotes on this that I find insightful, meaningful, even "valid" in some cases.
Probably another couple dozen I've invented myself that might be more or less insightful [that wouldn't really be up to me to judge].

But the real thing is: I don't believe there is any "nature of humanity."
There are common groundings, areas of overlap, general characteristics/kinds/categories in at least a statistical sense.

But, I'd bet serious cash that for every example of "human nature" one could devise I, personally know someone who isn't that. And if I can know that many different "natures" of people, how many different natures are actually out there? I mean, what percentage of people have I met? And what about all of you out there in Watcherland that have been more places, done more things, met more people than I have?
But I really hope this thread takes off...could be quite interesting.

I think we're here to learn and grow.

Maybe that's the same thing as striving, sort of. The idea is similar, anyhow -- to make ourselves better somehow than we were when we arrived on this planet.

*nodding*

I agree with that ali; it is my basic thought as to why we are here. To learn and experience, and bring back our unique perspective when we return. But I don't know if that is necessarily our nature.

Designed to turn to God, we turn our back on God and seek the source of life within ourselves. The result - sin* and death.
Amartia (Gr) -

It is no simple "we're all imperfect humans" line. It is far more than a line - the doctrine is based on deep thought and is consistent with human experience. The behavior is NOT justified - but it is explained.
A brief intro to that concept: www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=16

Like Fist, I've always felt it was to strive. What you strive for or against doesn't really matter, except to you. In fact, the purpose of all life, from plants to us, is to strive.

I've even argued before that if life had some external meaning, that would be it. Just to strive.

--A

Avatar wrote:Like Fist, I've always felt it was to strive. What you strive for or against doesn't really matter, except to you. In fact, the purpose of all life, from plants to us, is to strive.

I've even argued before that if life had some external meaning, that would be it. Just to strive.

Question...

Does Human Nature = Purpose/Meaning of Life?

They're two different things in my opinion.

Menolly wrote:Does Human Nature = Purpose/Meaning of Life?

They're two different things in my opinion.

I agree. Our nature makes us do certain things. I listed several, and I believe striving is the one that sits atop them all. Humans (in general, and most individuals) are driven by our nature.

Meaning/purpose is a personal thing, imo. We each assign meaning to our lives. Could grow out of our nature. Could have everything to do with our nature.

Menolly wrote:

Avatar wrote:Like Fist, I've always felt it was to strive. What you strive for or against doesn't really matter, except to you. In fact, the purpose of all life, from plants to us, is to strive.

I've even argued before that if life had some external meaning, that would be it. Just to strive.

Question...

Does Human Nature = Purpose/Meaning of Life?

They're two different things in my opinion.

Agree...for instance, to some extent, for many of us, it is part of our nature to seek purpose/meaning.
That seeking is closely related, maybe the same as, the striving that's been mentioned.
But I don't think striving/seeking is in everyones nature.

rusmeister wrote:Designed to turn to God, we turn our back on God and seek the source of life within ourselves. The result - sin* and death.
Amartia (Gr) -

It is no simple "we're all imperfect humans" line. It is far more than a line - the doctrine is based on deep thought and is consistent with human experience. The behavior is NOT justified - but it is explained.
A brief intro to that concept: www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=16

I don't understand what your answer is. I think you're saying human nature is rebellion? Which sure seems like a good answer to me!

Vraith wrote:But I don't think striving/seeking is in everyones nature.

No, I don't either. It's posible that nothing is universal.

And I strive veeeeeeeeery little. I'm as free from ambition as anyone you'll find.

But I have striven. I suppose for many things, but the biggest is to understand. I've spent most of my life coming to understand what I think and feel, most of the time quite intentionally. Reading, talking, thinking... About various religions, meaning, etc. And that striving paid off. I'm very comfortable and happy with my place in this reality.

Anyway, I do believe striving is human nature, even if not every individual's. The overwhelming majority strive all their lives. Many seem to jump from one thing to the next, not seeming to care what they're striving for, as long as they are striving. Maybe workaholics. Maybe the people who are never able to sit still. I don't know. But the striving that wouldn't be diagnosed as some mental or emotional problem is what has driven all human activity. Exploration; advances in knowledge and technologies; creation of masterpiece of art, music, literature; etc.

Glory.

Either to want it, to help someone else achieve it, or just to revel in someone else's.

Over to you, Vraith.

Stonemaybe wrote:Glory.

Either to want it, to help someone else achieve it, or just to revel in someone else's.

Over to you, Vraith.

heh...you make me sound like the spoiler. Maybe I'll change my name to Stone-meh.
I kinda like Glory, though...or at least its lesser cousins respect, or attention.
Someone [don't recall who] said the greatest difference is, as far as we know, humans are the only creatures capable of metaphor. I kinda like that one [though I wonder if dolphins and a few others critters can do it too].

Menolly wrote:
Question...

Does Human Nature = Purpose/Meaning of Life?

No, they're not necessarily the same thing at all. In this sense however, they could be interchangeable.

--A

I'd have to agree with "to strive". Consider...religion (any faith) tells us to strive...For Christians, strive to live a life in complete accordance with God's Will....For Buddhists, strive to banish all desire and worldly attachment. For Wiccans, strive to be better and make the world better.

We strive.

The Human Race & The Animal Kingdom

or should it be...

The Animal Race & The Human Kingdom

Nature of Humanity: to reproduce.

That's it.
That's all we are.
We just happen to be more intelligent than bacteria and have nicer things but that's it.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Nature of Humanity: to reproduce.
That's it.
That's all we are.
We just happen to be more intelligent than bacteria and have nicer things but that's it.

That is sad on so many levels. I would like to believe that despite the fact that I was unable to reproduce, that I am not some lost creature, floundering among the directionless and lacking humanity. I would like to believe that my essential nature remains intact, that I still strive for change and hope.

lorin wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Nature of Humanity: to reproduce.
That's it.
That's all we are.
We just happen to be more intelligent than bacteria and have nicer things but that's it.

That is sad on so many levels. I would like to believe that despite the fact that I was unable to reproduce, that I am not some lost creature, floundering among the directionless and lacking humanity. I would like to believe that my essential nature remains intact, that I still strive for change and hope.

See, I knew someone would do that.
You can't take an all encompassing concept like "the nature of humanity" and apply it to an individual.

Another question that might need to be answered before questioning the "nature of" is what is "humanity" to begin with.
I think I might have been too basic or primeval with my answer.
Perhaps "humanity" is too refined for it.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

lorin wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Nature of Humanity: to reproduce.
That's it.
That's all we are.
We just happen to be more intelligent than bacteria and have nicer things but that's it.

That is sad on so many levels. I would like to believe that despite the fact that I was unable to reproduce, that I am not some lost creature, floundering among the directionless and lacking humanity. I would like to believe that my essential nature remains intact, that I still strive for change and hope.

See, I knew someone would do that.
You can't take an all encompassing concept like "the nature of humanity" and apply it to an individual.

Another question that might need to be answered before questioning the "nature of" is what is "humanity" to begin with.
I think I might have been too basic or primeval with my answer.
Perhaps "humanity" is too refined for it.

That is pretty close to what I was aiming at. Distinctly human, in that non-humans don't display it, yet "nature" because all humans do.