Kevin's Watch

I'm trying to figure out why AATE ends with Covenant's visit to Joan, because from a wider plot-perspective, it doesn't seem all that necessary.

On the subject of closure, it's not like either Covenant or Joan really have anything more to say to each other; at this point there's no possibility that she can be redeemed, and given that she's already gotten him killed once, it's not like she can do anything worse to him.

On the subject of the ring, it's already doing about as much damage as it can possibly do. If anyone on Foul's team had the ability to wreak more havoc with it, he would simply have let Joan die and passed it on. So even if Covenant hadn't shown up, it would simply have lay (or floated, or whatever) there after the tsunami until the arrival of the Worm rendered it and everything else moot.

And it's not like the good guys have any use for more white gold, especially a ring that none of them are attuned to.

So why this side trip, whose primary purpose appears to have been to put Joan's ring in the hands of the good guys? All I can think of is that a second ring might prove really useful (you might almost say "key") if the characters ever meet up with someone who can physically construct an Arch of Time. Of course, what are the oods of that happening? (See RotE, p 44-45).

Whatever the case may be, Covenant won't be using wild magic. It's clear that he will keep his promises not to ever ride Ranyhyn and not use power again.

Well, we know for sure that there will be no caesures in the last book. So we're definitely done with time travel.

Maybe Covenant needed to return the favor to Joan. But seriously, from a perspective of character growth -- he literally killed himself for her in the real world. Now he's taking charge of his renewed life. Maybe?

dlbpharmd wrote:Whatever the case may be, Covenant won't be using wild magic. It's clear that he will keep his promises not to ever ride Ranyhyn and not use power again.

Don't agree.

Spoiler

The whole arc of the book leads towards him finding a new way to use power

.

Personally I think at the end of the book, he says something to the effect of he's "setting her free" and "doing all he can for her". In many ways he feels responsible for her being in the position she's in, for all her pain, and not only has to stop her to protect the Land and himself, but to release her "the only way he knows how".

I had always hoped that Joan could somehow redeem herself. I was a little disappointed that she didn't. But then ... she couldn't. It's given me a bit of peace, however, that her last act - turning to the Ranyhyn - was one of love. Better than nothing.

When Covenant pulled the krill from the stump (heh heh heh), the issue of his promise never to use power again was brought up. He said, "This won't be the first promise I've broken. Maybe it'll be the last."

Scenario. (and please, no puking noises from the THOOLAH gallery *grin*) Covenant marries Linden. They exchange rings. Does't that make them both "rightful wielders?" Joan's ring was given to her by Covenant. After her death, perhaps he can do the same again. Would he have been the "rightful wielder" if he had simply bought a white gold ring? I don't think so. I think that marriage plays an important part in that. After all, he "gave" his ring to Linden at the end of White Gold Wielder. But that didn't make her its rightful wielder. I think marriage may be the secret ingredient in that "special sauce." Two rightful wielders in the Land would be pretty potent. Look how far the good guys have gotten so far with NONE.

So we're definitely done with time travel.

I wouldn't assume that. There are still any number of Insequent out there who potentially have the power to travel in time.

And it's conceivable that among Jeremiah's talents is the ability to construct doors through time; it's implied that there's litle if anything that he can't build, given the proper materials.

starkllr wrote:

So we're definitely done with time travel.

I wouldn't assume that. There are still any number of Insequent out there who potentially have the power to travel in time.

And it's conceivable that among Jeremiah's talents is the ability to construct doors through time; it's implied that there's litle if anything that he can't build, given the proper materials.

True. We would seem to be done with caesures, tho. I would presume that any Joan created before her death will eventually sort of "wink out".

Romeo, I've been wondering why Linden wasn't a "rightful wielder" for a couple of books now, because Covenant as much as gave her his ring at the end of WGW. You may be right, tho, that there needs to be a spoken bond or vow or commitment of some kind -- like marriage. It can't just be, "Here ya go, now that I don't have a body, I don't need it any more."

It was important for Joan to go; they're fighting too many things at once. Also, if the Worm breaks the Arch, it won't necessarily kill Joan, not with white gold and LF around.
I was glad she went as she did, thought it was lovely.
I think Linden isn't completely the rightful wielder, though given the ring, in part because TC still exists.
The Linden/TC marriage idea has some sweetness, but I'm not sure if I'd like it or not: but there's something interesting here...if I'm correct in my SHE interpretation, the Creator and SHE were originally lovers, of equal status...TC/Linden parallel? Hint/necessity for a new world? He has the raw force, she has the law and health. There are so many possible speculations on the good guys having both rings, I'm swamped in them.

re: Linden is not a "rightful wielder"

I have problems with this.

At the end of WGW, TC offers the ring to Linden, but she refuses. He then gives it to Foul. Linden takes the ring at Covenant's insistence ("pick up the ring!")

If I give something to someone, it's theirs. They can do with it whatever they want. Keep it, throw it away, sell it, give it to someone else. It is theirs until they decide it isn't.

Covenant gave the ring away. Linden picked it up after Foul disappeared.

So, who would be the rightful wielder of Joan's ring? Certainly not TC, because they're divorced.

The conclusion is inescapable, my friends.

TC's ring belongs to Lord Foul.
Joan's ring belongs to Roger now.

dlbpharmd wrote:re: Linden is not a "rightful wielder"

I have problems with this.

At the end of WGW, TC offers the ring to Linden, but she refuses. He then gives it to Foul. Linden takes the ring at Covenant's insistence ("pick up the ring!")

If I give something to someone, it's theirs. They can do with it whatever they want. Keep it, throw it away, sell it, give it to someone else. It is theirs until they decide it isn't.

Covenant gave the ring away. Linden picked it up after Foul disappeared.

So, who would be the rightful wielder of Joan's ring? Certainly not TC, because they're divorced.

The conclusion is inescapable, my friends.

TC's ring belongs to Lord Foul.
Joan's ring belongs to Roger now.

When did Joan give her ring to Roger?

Regarding time travel: Why are we necessarily done? Linden can create caesures.

Regarding rightful wielders: Linden isn't a rightful wielder because she isn't the white gold. She's not a Creator. Covenant is; he writes books, he tells the stories which shape worlds. Jeremiah is a Creator too; he's already built an Arch of Time. But Creators can't fix their creations, can't heal them. That's Linden's job. A second ring might give Jeremiah the opportunity to construct a new world while the other ring. . . does what? Holds off the Worm? Helps redeem She Who Must Not Be Named so they can invert Kevin's Dirt and make a really big Forbidding?

rdhopeca wrote:

dlbpharmd wrote:re: Linden is not a "rightful wielder"

I have problems with this.

At the end of WGW, TC offers the ring to Linden, but she refuses. He then gives it to Foul. Linden takes the ring at Covenant's insistence ("pick up the ring!")

If I give something to someone, it's theirs. They can do with it whatever they want. Keep it, throw it away, sell it, give it to someone else. It is theirs until they decide it isn't.

Covenant gave the ring away. Linden picked it up after Foul disappeared.

So, who would be the rightful wielder of Joan's ring? Certainly not TC, because they're divorced.

The conclusion is inescapable, my friends.

TC's ring belongs to Lord Foul.
Joan's ring belongs to Roger now.

When did Joan give her ring to Roger?

Roger is her sole heir.

The two most powerful implements of the Old Lords were the Staff of Law and Loric's <i>krill</i>. I think there's a nice symmetry to Covenant having a white gold ring and the krill and Linden having the white gold ring and a Staff of Law.

As to rightful ring-wielders - I've never understood why Linden's not a rightful wielder, and for most of RotE I figured it was just her self-doubt holding her back. But now that we've got the real Covenant confirming it...even while not taking the ring from her, and promising to give it back when he does take it...dunno.

But I figure it's related to Covenant being the White Gold, which (along with Loric's krill) allowed him to face and survive Joan's magic in a way that nobody else could've done.

I really liked this as an ending, by the way. Both Linden and Covenant end the book on an upswing, with at least some of the many enemies and problems disposed of so we can get on to more important enemies. And it's nice to have Joan's torment finally done, and Covenant finding a new way to wield power.

Re: Roger being the heir to Joan's ring...nah. That's not gonna be enough for real ownership of the white gold, not if Covenant willing his ring to Linden wasn't enough.

Roger, by the way, is a tool, and needs to die die die.

Agreed re Roger!

chaplainchris wrote: Roger, by the way, is a tool, and needs to die die die.

I actually feel kind of sorry for him, as it looks like he was never given that much of a choice in how his life turned out. The things Covenant said about Jeremiah and whether he was Foul's from the beginning could apply to Roger too. In which case "tool" becomes a very apt choice of word.

Anyone else wondering whether Roger's birthday present from Kastenessen renders him vulnerable to Jeremiah's constructs?

Dagonet wrote:

chaplainchris wrote: Roger, by the way, is a tool, and needs to die die die.

I actually feel kind of sorry for him, as it looks like he was never given that much of a choice in how his life turned out. The things Covenant said about Jeremiah and whether he was Foul's from the beginning could apply to Roger too. In which case "tool" becomes a very apt choice of word.

Anyone else wondering whether Roger's birthday present from Kastenessen renders him vulnerable to Jeremiah's constructs?

I'd feel sorry for Roger if I'd seen a single instance of him fighting against his bad side. I haven't, so I don't.

I think anyone could be imprisoned in a Jerry-box, but if you mean vulnerable in the same way as the Elohim, can't resist running into it...a firm probably not. I wonder if even Kastenessen is vulnerable that way anymore, considering what he's gone through...but that's just speculation with zero evidence.

That's not gonna be enough for real ownership of the white gold, not if Covenant willing his ring to Linden wasn't enough.

You can't will something to someone if it doesn't belong to you. The ring was Foul's to give, not Covenant's.

dlbpharmd wrote:

That's not gonna be enough for real ownership of the white gold, not if Covenant willing his ring to Linden wasn't enough.

You can't will something to someone if it doesn't belong to you. The ring was Foul's to give, not Covenant's.

Ok so if I die tomorrow, who gets my wedding ring? My living wife, or my living son?

I'm going to claim that if the ring passes by inheritence, Joan's ring passes back to Covenant who gave it to her before it passes to Roger who is her son.

I'm not an attorney, but I have stayed in a Holiday Inn a time or two. Your spouse is your next of kin. If there is no will, your estate goes to her. (I'm assuming no probate courts and all of that bullshit.) If your spouse has passed also, your child(ren) are your legal heirs.

On the other hand, if there is no will involved, a divorced spouse has no legal claim on your estate.